Melee units with range 2 - IMPLEMENTED
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Melee units with range 2 - IMPLEMENTED
In these days I had a conversation with Daniel about melee units with range 2, particularly regarding anti-cavalry units.
Daniel tought that we should avoid having more range 2 units since he doesn't like the attack animation while I think that having units with range 2 adds more strategy and allows us to create different kind of units and strategies (e.g. range 2 pikemen can be defended by broadswordsmen and be more effective against cavalry).
What is your opinion about range 2 units?
Do you like them and would like to have others in the future?
Daniel tought that we should avoid having more range 2 units since he doesn't like the attack animation while I think that having units with range 2 adds more strategy and allows us to create different kind of units and strategies (e.g. range 2 pikemen can be defended by broadswordsmen and be more effective against cavalry).
What is your opinion about range 2 units?
Do you like them and would like to have others in the future?
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Sunrise Samurai
- Posts: 2678
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:21 pm
- Location: Florida, U.S.
Re: Melee units with range 2
I would say from an animation point of view, I can see what he means. This being said, I don't pay enough attention to the animation to care. It's great for strategy, and almost necessary to be willing to use some troops, like spearman.
The glorious sun rises again
Re: Melee units with range 2
Having range 2 melee units is ok. About the animation, I don't really care about it.
Re: Melee units with range 2
Beside animation part things like attacking-over-wall and attacking-over-river are concerns here.
- Puss_in_Boots
- Posts: 3211
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:23 am
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Melee units with range 2
It would look wierd sometimes, so I would avoid distributing polearm weapon users 2 range commonly.
OLÉ
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
It is mostly for upgraded units or with techs (just to make it clear)Puss_in_Boots wrote:It would look wierd sometimes, so I would avoid distributing polearm weapon users 2 range commonly.
Age of Fantasy design leader
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15754
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
very good point!Detros wrote:Beside animation part things like attacking-over-wall and attacking-over-river are concerns here.
here we must have a solution on this.
- Puss_in_Boots
- Posts: 3211
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:23 am
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Melee units with range 2
To fix the wall issue we could have them get a different kind of ranged attack that can get blocked by any units standing in the way of the target. That way you have to get more creative than otherwise walk up and hit the unit behind another.
OLÉ
Re: Melee units with range 2
Could maybe adding some kind of javeliner that has 2 range, anticavalry bonuses and maybe also does, similar to catapult, melee damage instead of range one, be a way around this extra-long-halberd infantry?Daniel (the dev) wrote:very good point!Detros wrote:Beside animation part things like attacking-over-wall and attacking-over-river are concerns here.
here we must have a solution on this.
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
The wall thing it is something engin-related and it is the same thing that allows shooting arrows over the mountains or behind a wall.
Only coding the line of sight for attack can solve this.
There is no point making an anti cavalry javellineer since if you can't hit with a poleaxe because there is a mountain you can't with a javellin orcan arrow either.
Attacking at range 2 this way is not more unrealistic than with a bow.
Only coding the line of sight for attack can solve this.
There is no point making an anti cavalry javellineer since if you can't hit with a poleaxe because there is a mountain you can't with a javellin orcan arrow either.
Attacking at range 2 this way is not more unrealistic than with a bow.
Age of Fantasy design leader
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15754
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
not exactly, LOS would complexitize the game that i dont want, so i plan not to put in.Alexander82 wrote:The wall thing it is something engin-related and it is the same thing that allows shooting arrows over the mountains or behind a wall.
Only coding the line of sight for attack can solve this.
...
Attacking at range 2 this way is not more unrealistic than with a bow.
this is not LOS but a "line of attack" or something, meaning: melee damage via walls should not be.
(maybe via a river it could be... but would be weird again in some cases.)
These weird contradicions i fear of, not only the visuality problem (as u mentioned: "he doesn't like the attack animation")
however i like the "pikes can stand behind swordmen" concept, and would nicely strategic - that is why i suggested this open discussion.
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
Yes. They would add a lot of tactics and would make formations count more.
Anyway can you implement a line of attack that stops attacks st any range through obstacles?
Anyway can you implement a line of attack that stops attacks st any range through obstacles?
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Sunrise Samurai
- Posts: 2678
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:21 pm
- Location: Florida, U.S.
Re: Melee units with range 2
Admittedly, melee at range is a complicated issue. I don't want a line of attack system stopping archers, since they can typically aim in a higher arc to shoot over obstacles. I'd say the best option for the topic at hand is to leave 2 range melee attacks to giants and the human units already getting it.
The glorious sun rises again
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
Realistically speaking archer might shot over a wall (not mountains) but they would just shot hoping to hit something and not really aiming to someone.
In reality you wouldn't really see what's behind a wall and in maps like the mansion they can teleport their arrows through the walls. It is the same thing. You can't teleport an arrow more than you can teleport a spear.
I think that hitting through a wall in range 2 is totally the same and we might accept that as part of the game engine as we did with arrows (in AoS there have been already topics regarding line of attack so it shouldn't be taken for granted that it is normal the current behaviour).
In reality you wouldn't really see what's behind a wall and in maps like the mansion they can teleport their arrows through the walls. It is the same thing. You can't teleport an arrow more than you can teleport a spear.
I think that hitting through a wall in range 2 is totally the same and we might accept that as part of the game engine as we did with arrows (in AoS there have been already topics regarding line of attack so it shouldn't be taken for granted that it is normal the current behaviour).
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Sunrise Samurai
- Posts: 2678
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:21 pm
- Location: Florida, U.S.
Re: Melee units with range 2
Yeah. Now, given that this is AoF, I wouldn't put teleportating arrows or portal spears out of the question actually.
The glorious sun rises again
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
Exactly. This is the same logic. It is not an issue imho.
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Puss_in_Boots
- Posts: 3211
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:23 am
- Location: New Jersey
Re: Melee units with range 2
Could make a technology like that, "Portal arrows," if this topic results in walls blocking lines of attack.
We could use the ability of blocking certain trajectories of certain units to be blocked by others. Could make escort missions more easier or attacking a unit with escort require more skill and strategy. Sorta like a chess game.Puss_in_Boots wrote:To fix the wall issue we could have them get a different kind of ranged attack that can get blocked by any units standing in the way of the target. That way you have to get more creative than otherwise walk up and hit the unit behind another.
OLÉ
- Sunrise Samurai
- Posts: 2678
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:21 pm
- Location: Florida, U.S.
Re: Melee units with range 2
I'd rather not have the engine expanded to change range based on obstacles. That complicates things a bit, and honestly weakens elves a lot, since they rely entirely on ranged attacks.
The glorious sun rises again
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
That's not a problem. If we go that way every race will need some rebalance.
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
So, in the end i assume that range 2 hitting over obstacles is not a bigger problem than archers hitting over walls and mountains, right?
Considering that would you like more 2 range for pikemen of every race to make them a second line of units to keep behind swordsmen?
Considering that would you like more 2 range for pikemen of every race to make them a second line of units to keep behind swordsmen?
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Sunrise Samurai
- Posts: 2678
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:21 pm
- Location: Florida, U.S.
Re: Melee units with range 2
Depending on the unit. For example, goblins are small, weak, with short arms that can't possibly hold a pike long enough to make up for it.
The glorious sun rises again
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
Why not? Pikes exceed by far the height of his wielders. Pikes were just kept in balance and used thrusting or held onto the ground. From wikipedia: "While stationary, the staff of each pike could be butted against the ground, giving it resistance against attack. "
It was not a matter of strength or height but just of how it was used.
The range is part of the weapon and not of the wielder.
It was not a matter of strength or height but just of how it was used.
The range is part of the weapon and not of the wielder.
Age of Fantasy design leader
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15754
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
i think archers case look normal, pikes case look weird.Alexander82 wrote:So, in the end i assume that range 2 hitting over obstacles is not a bigger problem than archers hitting over walls and mountains, right?
so ween some coding to avoid pikes to hit hills - eg. a new property or something telling it is a ranged but still melee attack - that should not go tru obstackles, especially can hit to and trough only a tile that is walkable by the same unit.
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Melee units with range 2
It is just that we got used to it... I remember when first playing at AoS that i tought it was really strange how archer and walls or mountains were acting but i accepted it as part of the game.
For units like giants it even makes sense that they can get past through obstacles thanks to their height. The only thing we should define are walls in maps that should be interiors (e.g. in the mansion map it is really absurd for both range 2 and archers that they can attack through different rooms of a mansion).
For units like giants it even makes sense that they can get past through obstacles thanks to their height. The only thing we should define are walls in maps that should be interiors (e.g. in the mansion map it is really absurd for both range 2 and archers that they can attack through different rooms of a mansion).
Age of Fantasy design leader
- StormSaint373
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:35 pm
- Location: USA, East Ohio
Re: Melee units with range 2
I find the Range 2 units to be stategically beneficial. The animation for range 2 units is the same as melee, thus I find it amiable. Beyond that... I would find it disturbing. In Short, I support the Range 2 units.
Beware the calm before the Tempest. . .
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm