Jets on TC are really OP

[DreJaDe]

It's definitely not equal... There's definitely no way for allies to counter them unless you are in defensive.

[Stratego (dev)]

i am not sure i understand what is a "jet on tc" but seems it is a balance topic(?) - if so i move it to balance section.

[Puppeteer12]

I think what he meant is that the axis are able to produce jet planes on tc while the allies can't, making the axis have a huge advantage in air since they can have more jets which can do really high damage.

[DreJaDe]

I think what he meant is that the axis are able to produce jet planes on tc while the allies can't, making the axis have a huge advantage in air since they can have more jets which can do really high damage.

thats what i want to say. In real life, the way allies have been able to counter them is because allies have been able to establish aerial dominance by really having a lot of materials and having more planes compared to the me262. like having 100 prop plane vs 1 jet

this cant be replicated in the game added to the fact that jets can delete ordinary planes in one hit is really just too much if they are in tc.

[Jasondunkel]

since the germans were the only ones who used jet planes in the war. should you continue to have an advantage there. therefore drejade is right that the allies were actually superior.

Proposal 1
the german jet planes are also only built on the airfield. the allied planes are going to be a round more expensive.

suggestion 2
the normal fighter pilots will have their bonus adjusted so that they have better chances and the jet planes will also have their bonus adjusted so that they are no longer so dominant against the fighter planes with propellers

[DreJaDe]

since the germans were the only ones who used jet planes in the war. should you continue to have an advantage there. therefore drejade is right that the allies were actually superior.

Proposal 1
the german jet planes are also only built on the airfield. the allied planes are going to be a round more expensive.

suggestion 2
the normal fighter pilots will have their bonus adjusted so that they have better chances and the jet planes will also have their bonus adjusted so that they are no longer so dominant against the fighter planes with propellers

Proposal 1 doesn't make sense so that's out. Like there's no way that is a serious proposal.

Proposal 2 sounds good but I'm not sure how it will work.

I think besides adjustment of attack, there should also be an adjustment to their counterattack since if I'm not wrong, prop planes are more superior in terms of real dog fights. If they are attacked, it's usually harder for me262 to attack back. It's weapon also is not that great against fighters and more effective against bombers. It seems that they are actually not good as fighter and usually only have fuel enough to attack bombers and then that's it.

Here's my suggestions.
1.
Instead of the proposal 1. Why not make jets more expensive instead? I remember that me262 was not an easy to make plane and requires more maintenance, fuel and a change of engine for like every run (for me262 only).

2.
Make their damage equal to most prop fighters.

From most that I read, it seems that prop planes are just better fighters. Jets like me262 are just good at targeting bombers due to their cannons but not really that well against prop fighters.

They are like the mosquito in the early war. Just super fast that can't be intercepted but aren't really a superior fighter than prop fighters.

It seems also that their main use is for bombers and not fighting fighter planes. Like Meteors to V1 bombs and me262 to ally bombers.

3. Although they are built in high numbers... It's really hardly mass produced in 1400 when most planes on this time were produced in 10,000k numbers. So why not just remove them from tc.

[SS-Jericho]

since the germans were the only ones who used jet planes in the war. should you continue to have an advantage there. therefore drejade is right that the allies were actually superior.

Proposal 1
the german jet planes are also only built on the airfield. the allied planes are going to be a round more expensive.

suggestion 2
the normal fighter pilots will have their bonus adjusted so that they have better chances and the jet planes will also have their bonus adjusted so that they are no longer so dominant against the fighter planes with propellers

Proposal 1 doesn't make sense so that's out. Like there's no way that is a serious proposal.

Proposal 2 sounds good but I'm not sure how it will work.

I think besides adjustment of attack, there should also be an adjustment to their counterattack since if I'm not wrong, prop planes are more superior in terms of real dog fights. If they are attacked, it's usually harder for me262 to attack back. It's weapon also is not that great against fighters and more effective against bombers. It seems that they are actually not good as fighter and usually only have fuel enough to attack bombers and then that's it.

Here's my suggestions.
1.
Instead of the proposal 1. Why not make jets more expensive instead? I remember that me262 was not an easy to make plane and requires more maintenance, fuel and a change of engine for like every run (for me262 only).

2.
Make their damage equal to most prop fighters.

From most that I read, it seems that prop planes are just better fighters. Jets like me262 are just good at targeting bombers due to their cannons but not really that well against prop fighters.

They are like the mosquito in the early war. Just super fast that can't be intercepted but aren't really a superior fighter than prop fighters.

It seems also that their main use is for bombers and not fighting fighter planes. Like Meteors to V1 bombs and me262 to ally bombers.

3. Although they are built in high numbers... It's really hardly mass produced in 1400 when most planes on this time were produced in 10,000k numbers. So why not just remove them from tc.

I disagree on 3 of your suggestion. Increasing their costs and reducing their stat is a huge nerf to the point that jet fighters is unusable in-game. And of course, germany would not be able to mass produce anything at that time. Jasondunkel's point is that it was used during the war, therefore it should show up in the game earlier than other jet planes. But Jasondunkel's first proposal of increasing cost allied jet planes is very unbalanced.

If jet fighter damage to fighter plane is reduce, so will the propellered planes' damage to jet fighters. Since propellered planes will have a hard time killing a jet plane.

Suggestion : Jets that are available on tc will have an increase in cost by 1, but they will still have the same cost on the airfield. I'm not sure if it can be done but maybe their files can be duplicated but their tc counterpart will be indicated as (early)? So it is sort of a different plane, but same stat and just increased in cost.

Fighters' damage bonuses fix is a must. The huge gap between the jets and fighters should be reduced. But not so close to the point that jet fighters cost outweigh its stat. Jet fighter planes should still be relevant at later game but not just too OP.

[DreJaDe]

I disagree on 3 of your suggestion. Increasing their costs and reducing their stat is a huge nerf to the point that jet fighters is unusable in-game. And of course, germany would not be able to mass produce anything at that time. Jasondunkel's point is that it was used during the war, therefore it should show up in the game earlier than other jet planes. But Jasondunkel's first proposal of increasing cost allied jet planes is very unbalanced.

It's not a unified suggestion. You could just pick any in the number or any thought in the same number. It was just a suggestion.

Yes, Germany would not be able to mass produce anything at the time. But in the same sense, Allies would also rush their jets into service, mass produced and everything if they in the same case. The allies are pretty comfortable so they don't need to.

As for Jets showing up earlier than others... That can be said for others too which they somehow doesn't acknowledge like ally ships and all. And in this case, it's even more OP that they can be more produced than others with the current stats.

Also, let us remember that the release of me262 is just a month ahead of meteor jet. The level production just wasn't equal because UK is not desperate anymore.

If jet fighter damage to fighter plane is reduce, so will the propellered planes' damage to jet fighters. Since propellered planes will have a hard time killing a jet plane

The problem here is that, how much more can the prop plane damage be reduced... And the most important part, is there even a reason to change their attack when we are just making their gap the same anyway with this thought?

Suggestion : Jets that are available on tc will have an increase in cost by 1,

A good one but might be redundant. I don't think this is ever done in any other AO though saying this might make this suggestion a possibility lol.

[Dahdee]

ok. so I did some looking on the internet and I found that there are about 540 confirmed allied planes shot down by the me262. out of about 40k allied plane losses, that equates to a bit over 1% of downed allied planes. I'm going with the 262, as that was really the most effectively used German jet. at industry 4 in AoW, I can guarantee axis or German players are shooting more than 1% of their foes with jets. prop planes were definitely more prevalent. as to the basic idea jets (all jets, of every nation) should not be built in Tc, I agree with that completely. they're too advanced and complicated to build just anywhere. they need to be built in airports. I propose having a specific factory expressly for the production of jets. possibly making all a bit more expensive, maybe by one turn. that way, instead of nerfing them or changing anything else, you can make them more of a commitment to build, therefore limiting their use. They would remain deadly and extraordinary. IMO that should really be the solution.

[SS-Jericho]

The problem here is that, how much more can the prop plane damage be reduced... And the most important part, is there even a reason to change their attack when we are just making their gap the same anyway with this thought?

The goal is just to make jet planes safe from propellered planes. And of course, not making jet planes too strong against fighters. So the only counter to jet planes are AA. But jet planes would not dominate fighters only bombers. Because thats how the me262 performed as far as i know.

A good one but might be redundant. I don't think this is ever done in any other AO though saying this might make this suggestion a possibility lol.

Mhm yes. And this idea can also effect other units that also have this same issue. So other units that should not be in tc will want to have this same kind of fix.

. I propose having a specific factory expressly for the production of jets.

This is just unnecessary, because all nation will have new factory airport and only few units can be build. Plus it is just an airport with extra steps. By tech III players have excess engineers to build new factory quick. And players will either focus on building jet factories, especially for germany since they have both good bomber and fighter jets in game. Whereareas, allies will have a hard time, and will stick to propellered planes factory. Since they will only benefit from getting fighter jets from new factory. Remember factory costs a slot.

possibly making all a bit more expensive, maybe by one turn.

This may seem to be a good solution. But if jets is already 1 turn expensive than regular fighters. And if they still dominate every plane, players will still focus on building them. Now if we nerf the stats of jets, their ~7 turn costs is not worth to build for what they can do. And jets will no longer be useful at later games.

So we can just fix the stats of the jets and propellered fighters. And differentiate the cost of jets from tc and their airfield counterpart.

But in my opinion, a new industry should be really introduced. Altough this is a very long fix and will take time. But this will fix every issue of prototype units and 1945 onward units that dominate 1943 units. There are lots of unit from 1943 that are not being build in mulitplayer because there are better units from 1945 and prototype units that are available.

[Dahdee]

. I propose having a specific factory expressly for the production of jets.

This is just unnecessary, because all nation will have new factory airport and only few units can be build. Plus it is just an airport with extra steps. By tech III players have excess engineers to build new factory quick. And players will either focus on building jet factories, especially for germany since they have both good bomber and fighter jets in game. Whereareas, allies will have a hard time, and will stick to propellered planes factory. Since they will only benefit from getting fighter jets from new factory. Remember factory costs a slot.
[/quote]

I should have clarified that I meant for Germany only. Because every nation except Germany continues to rely on prop planes late game it is not necessary. If you make them more expensive it may push some players to use more prop type planes. Especially on smaller maps. Also, you should not be able to research jet engines until industry 4, IMO. As for making prop fighters less vulnerable, if that is the only issue here, remove the jet counter attack, as it is going to cause all fighters that attack it to die. These WW2 jets were not the super maneuverable jets we have today. When these things attacked it was at great speed and they hit and are gone. Because they couldn't turn well, in a real dogfight they did not do well vs the maneuverability of a prop fighter. They hit and they are gone. So, if you have a bunch of standard fighters all dying every time they take their attack, isn't that really a big part of the issue here? Remove the counter and it's a good chance several prop fighters on a jet are going to take it down and survive. Give them better damage against jets and coupled with removing the counter attack of the jet with it's crazy bonus for it's hit and run attack (which isn't happening in a dogfight situation) and maybe you solve the issue.

[Dahdee]

Another thing that could be considered, and I know a lot of people will immediately say no, but hear me out on this...you could make jets have a finite lifespan. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, many needed engine refits after a sortie. They also used A LOT of fuel. Having jet fighters loiter for extended amounts of time isn't very realistic. If one of the wishes is to decrease players relying solely on jet fighters, and increasing their cost of production is just a solid no, make them not last forever. That would certainly make people think twice about spamming nothing but jets. It's just an idea I want to throw out here. Personally I don't like the idea of increasing the cost of allied jets at all, and as I said before, I don't think ANY, of any nation, should be made in Tc.

[Dahdee]

To clarify, the countdown would begin once it left the airstrip. You could have several on standby in each airfield indefinitely, until you put them in action.

[Dahdee]

That would turn them into the bomber interceptors that truly were, as opposed to the fighter slayers they are in game now.

[Dahdee]

Afterthought: give airfields "delays vanishing" which would allow you to reuse the jet IF you return for repairs.

[TntAttack]

Afterthought: give airfields "delays vanishing" which would allow you to reuse the jet IF you return for repairs.

I like the idea, but only for jets? If it's all air units it's quite burdensome but at least it's pretty balanced, if it only jets then I can only laugh with my infinite range 4 turn fighters and 6 turn bombers.

[Dahdee]

Afterthought: give airfields "delays vanishing" which would allow you to reuse the jet IF you return for repairs.

I like the idea, but only for jets? If it's all air units it's quite burdensome but at least it's pretty balanced, if it only jets then I can only laugh with my infinite range 4 turn fighters and 6 turn bombers.

Tnt, you already know from our many in match chats, that I like realism. I would LOVE for this to apply to all planes. And yes, it would be burdensome, and because of that it would require more strategy and less rock paper scissors thinking. TBH I'm shocked the first comment about the idea was not a hell no

[Dahdee]

It's not too far fetched, considering we just did something rather similar for subs. Just saying.

[Dahdee]

But to remain on main point of discussion, let's do away with making any jets in Tc. Even if nothing else changes, that needs to be done.

[SS-Jericho]

I should have clarified that I meant for Germany only.

Now that is unfair, because germany should have jet fighters earlier than other nation. And that is currently the discussion of this topic, balancing on having first but not too spammy from tc.

you should not be able to research jet engines until industry 4,

There is currently no industry 4 in game. But i get what your saying, jet engines should be allowed to be researched on tech III. That could be good, so by tech III fighter planes wont get phased out.

As for making prop fighters less vulnerable, if that is the only issue here, remove the jet counter attack, as it is going to cause all fighters that attack it to die. These WW2 jets were not the super maneuverable jets we have today. When these things attacked it was at great speed and they hit and are gone. Because they couldn't turn well, in a real dogfight they did not do well vs the maneuverability of a prop fighter. They hit and they are gone

Removing their counter attack will make them too vulnerable. Jet fighters may perform poor in dog fights, but they are very safe from propellered planes so long as they don't engange in any acrobatic maneuvers and take advantage of their speed. And that is also the tactic that allied planes use against slow but maneuverable axis fighter planes. So a damage reduction of jet planes is only needed.

So jet fighters should NOT be vulnerable to propellered planes AND Jet fighters should NOT one shot propellered planes. And that is currently the suggestion of Drejade, Jason, and I. To fix the damage bonuses of these planes.

The finite lifespan sounds an idea, maybe in a separate topic?

[Dahdee]

I get what you are saying, Jericho. I'm totally good with that if it's reduced to the point where it's not suicidal because of the counter. I was saying what I did because in a multiple prop plane on single jet scenario, I just don't imagine this thing being able to swing around and counter multiple attacks. More of it's making a pass and lighting up one plane and climbing like crazy to get away and make another pass. If we can strike the balance you guys are trying to achieve, then that's great. I'm just wondering how it works? Realistically speaking, if a jet got the drop on a fighter from behind, likely it wouldn't know what hit it as it was getting lit up. How do we keep that, but make it not futile to attack them and still keep the counter attack? I guess I'm asking what exactly the reduction/buff is going to be? Obviously different for each unit, but what's the ballpark idea points wise? And, I'll put the topic about finite aircraft lifespan in "others" section.

[Jasondunkel]

So to briefly state again why the Germans should get or have a bonus in some form with the jet planes

They were the only ones who used planes like that and they did it about 2 years before everyone else did it, although the British did the basic research even earlier than the Germans

like the usa should get a bonus when the A-bomb comes.

I know a lot of games where the allies don't even have the opportunity to build jet planes

I think the option to make another color for the jet planes is unnecessary.

i would like to give the idea of ​​jet planes with a limited service life to the me163 comet, since it actually only has a 10 minute flight
plane was.

for the other jets i don't like the idea

the bonuses from the jets and the propeller planes are treated separately and we can therefore handle both well.

the me262 as a jet had difficulties at the beginning after the german pilots realized that they were not so good in turning battles, but otherwise could easily take it up especially in corner battles.

here is the english wiki:
"Pilots soon learned that the Me 262 was quite maneuverable despite its high wing loading and lack of low-speed thrust, especially if attention was drawn to its effective maneuvering speeds. The controls were light and effective right up to the maximum permissible speed and perfectly harmonized. The inclusion of full span automatic leading-edge slats,[Note 6] something of a "tradition" on Messerschmitt fighters dating back to the original Bf 109's outer wing slots of a similar type, helped increase the overall lift produced by the wing by as much as 35% in tight turns or at low speeds, greatly improving the aircraft's turn performance as well as its landing and takeoff characteristics.[66] As many pilots soon found out, the Me 262's clean design also meant that it, like all jets, held its speed in tight turns much better than conventional propeller-driven fighters, which was a great potential advantage in a dogfight as it meant better energy retention in maneuvers.[67][68]
January 1945 Me-262 being shot down. Note jettisoned canopy and empty cockpit. As seen from USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera

Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off.[Note 7] As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. Combating the Allied fighters could be effectively done the same way as the U.S. fighters fought the more nimble, but slower, Japanese fighters in the Pacific.[citation needed]

Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land. The Luftwaffe countered by installing extensive Flak alleys of anti-aircraft guns along the approach lines to protect the Me 262s from the ground—and by providing top cover during the jets' takeoff and landing with the most advanced Luftwaffe single-engined fighters, the Focke -Wulf Fw 190D and (just becoming available in 1945) Focke-Wulf Ta 152H.[70] Nevertheless, in March–April 1945, Allied fighter patrol patterns over Me 262 airfields resulted in numerous jet losses"

under the given circumstances the 1400 aircraft produced is a type of mass production where the british had maybe 100

I now find the idea of ​​producing the me262 fighter with 6 rounds only on the airfield and the allied jets with 7 rounds to be quite balanced, for the fact that the allied ones had no V1 projectiles in the Eind'satz.

except for the arado ar 234, the other german jets can also become more expensive because they were only planned or prototypes

e.g. the hoarding then costs 9 instead of 8

all other German jets

Regarding the bonuses: I hope to present the suggestions to you over the weekend

[DreJaDe]

the me262 as a jet had difficulties at the beginning after the german pilots realized that they were not so good in turning battles, but otherwise could easily take it up especially in corner battles.

Although they developed a way to fight fighters, they really weren't in any way still superior on terms of dogfighting. They just became somewhat equalunlike earlier where they are bad.

But due to low fuel, they also can't really dogfight.

They were the only ones who used planes like that and they did it about 2 years before everyone else did it, although the British did the basic research even earlier than the Germans

Not sure what you talking about but if you're talking about is introduction then it's not 2 years but just a month. The introduction of the me262 vs meteor.

If it's as fighter then meteor is already a fighter from the beginning. They only did not use it as such the same way how the germans avoid fighting tanks with their tanks early in the war.

One fact is that as a fighter. Meteor have better weapon against fighters. While me262 have better weapon against bomber.

under the given circumstances the 1400 aircraft produced is a type of mass production where the british had maybe 100

I don't think this should be considered much as the only reason why Germany did this is because they are desperate. The allies have a lot of prop fighters and don't really need to waste money for unreliable jets so they didn't do so but can. In fact, British jets are more sustainable and seems to be easier to create.

If this is always considered, I can only wonder why is this not OK with ally ships everytime I suggested them?

[Stratego (dev)]

under the given circumstances the 1400 aircraft produced is a type of mass production where the british had maybe 100

I agree with Jasondunkel - if germans used more jets as "technoology" we should show that in game, naturally with keeping balance.

If this is always considered, I can only wonder why is this not OK with ally ships everytime I suggested them?

not sure which you mean but i am sure those ships are not a different "technology", just a type of reguar ship, so can not be compared to this case.
i wrote somewhere that these things are "falvour", we dont need to make these "highlights" everywhere, only on remarkable cases.
and it is not about Ally or Axis, if any Ally have a specialy "famous" technology or "famous" as the way it was used than we can show in game, so a simple "numbers" of production that no one knows (i mean regualr players) can be shown in game but is not the same case as revolutionary technology.
as i wrote here: https://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic ... 12#p137012

[DreJaDe]

I agree with Jasondunkel - if germans used more jets as "technoology" we should show that in game, naturally with keeping balance.

There was no special way of making it. They just mass produced it cause they were desperate. The allies didn't cause they have a lot of plane. Like a lot more than the axis. In terms of level of techs, the meteor is superior in almost all aspect besides speed.

not sure which you mean but i am sure those ships are not a different "technology", just a type of reguar ship, so can not be compared to this case.
i wrote somewhere that these things are "falvour", we dont need to make these "highlights" everywhere, only on remarkable cases.

I already said that they were. It's quite famous how allies made a thousands of liberty ships in just a short amount of time. It literally became the symbol of US industrial might in ww2.

It's also quite famous how they made 20k transport ships which can't ever be done by axis during the war. The ratio is like 20:1 vs axis transport ships.

[Jasondunkel]

you didn't see the point of the special technology. because with the liberty ships nothing is special than the particularly strong effort to build many of an existing ship.

all parties to the war always tried to have an advantage over the other side, the statement that the allies didn't have to do it because they were so superior is not valid because then the usa would not have had to build an atomic bomb.

to the statement of speed all records were only set after the war where they improved everything for several months, the first machines were still significantly slower than the me262



The special technology is the atomic bomb, as I said, the USA should then get a bonus there to build them

[DreJaDe]

you didn't see the point of the special technology. because with the liberty ships nothing is special than the particularly strong effort to build many of an existing ship.

all parties to the war always tried to have an advantage over the other side, the statement that the allies didn't have to do it because they were so superior is not valid because then the usa would not have had to build an atomic bomb

Sorry but that is even more invalid. US built atomic bomb because they can do it and have the resources to do it. They didn't even rush it and only have 2 before the war ended. The difference between "they can" and "have to" is a lot.

Germany who have researched it is incapable of finishing such project so they didn't even continue. Partly due to the fact that the researchers were Jew that they didn't like.

Again. There is nothing special with Germany mass producing 1400 jets when allies could have easily done it given the same circumstance. This is roughly equal to the liberty ships who was mass produced because they were desperate to win the war.

TBH, I hardly can see how Germany could create 1700 10k tons ship with their resources. It was a definitely special thing that only the allies could have done.

to the statement of speed all records were only set after the war where they improved everything for several months, the first machines were still significantly slower than the me262

The problem here is that they don't need to be faster when it's so unreliable and so costly. And Meteor F3 which is also built during the war did actually reach a faster speed than me262.

The main point here being that the meteor is roughly equal to me262.

[Stratego (dev)]

Sorry but that is even more invalid. US built atomic bomb because they can do it and have the resources to do it. They didn't even rush it and only have 2 before the war ended. The difference between "they can" and "have to" is a lot.
Germany who have researched it is incapable of finishing such project so they didn't even continue. Partly due to the fact that the researchers were Jew that they didn't like.

US atomic bomb should be definitely show in game, earlier than other nations or having it cheaper in cost or having the tech automatically on last industry level change or something.
This is the way we can show a "remarkable" thing. it is not even important that there were made only 2 bombs, its "fame" makes it "remarkable" to show in game.

so "numbers" of anything or any other approach only matter if that is "famous" and that will make it "intertesting".

[SS-Jericho]

The allies didn't cause they have a lot of plane.

Even though they can, they did'nt do it, that is already the point. This is not some grand strategy game where it features historical scenario and you can alter what was produced earlier and what was not. I think the main logic of the stats for most special units is that the axis will get earlier units because they started the war, while allies get better stats.

If you apply that mass production logic for the allies, axis would be unplayable. Because the only reason that the axis were winning at the start, was they prepared for it, so they were able to produced earlier and plan the strategy. And that can't be applied in game.

Moreover, the french would be a lot stronger than germany. French tanks would be a lot cheaper and available, because they "can", but did not have to because they thought it would be some ww1 fight and was prepared with the maginot line(I could be wrong in this).

And if we applied that logic, there are other logic that would cancel that out. Example the soviet T34/76 model 1940 will be 3 turns and retain its superior stats than the panzer IV. BUT the T34/76 was an innacurate, crews were overlyworked, and was not used properly at the start of the war, because they lack experienced generals and tank commanders to apply proper organization for their tanks.

Soviet infantry will have twice their HP, because they have huge manpower to field their frontline and create resistance. It is one of the reason that led to high german casualty before 1942. BUT, they lack experienced commanders and they were ill-equipped which made them perform poor and uncoordinated. And it resulted to a number of their divisions enircled, trapped, and captured. And how can that be balanced out in game?

On the other hand, meteor fighter bonus could be improved and have different stats than the me262. While the liberty ship, i prefer the better feature or stats than the regular transport ship, instead of being cheaper. That's my opinion.

[DreJaDe]

Even though they can, they did'nt do it, that is already the point. This is not some grand strategy game where it features historical scenario and you can alter what was produced earlier and what was not. I think the main logic of the stats for most special units is that the axis will get earlier units because they started the war, while allies get better stats.

You might be having a big misunderstanding or I am. My point isn't to make allies OP or anyone OP. The point of my statement is make then jets and others less OP. Which is basically what you are saying now also.

Which btw is literally the title and the reason of this thread.