Additional walls for all races

[Savra]

Additional walls for each race:

Humans:
Costly wall: wall
Costly gate: gate

Cheap wall: pallisades
Cheap gate: pallisades gate

Elves:
Costly wall: thorn bush

Cheap wall: thicket

Orcs:
Costly wall: stone quarry

Cheap wall: stone pile

Undead:
Costly wall: bone wall
Costly gate: skull gate

Cheap wall: Meat shield

Dwarves:
Costly wall: cannon wall
Costly gate: iron clad gate

Cheap wall: stone blockade
Cheap gate: stone gateway

I believe this is correct we could discuss here specialty of each. Stats we could discuss too. (For new ones)

[Savra]

Btw, the thicket.

[makazuwr32]

Btw, the thicket.

For thicket i suggest to remove thorns and instead make some flowers or like that. Thicket will be passable as gate for allies and will be able to grow more thickets by itself.

[Alexander82]

I think that for elves it might have more sense to have 2 different kind of walls also in terms of concept. Maybe a more solid wall without regeneration but with stats similar to the human or orcish wall. I think that elves are the ones that would receive a higher benefit from a solid impassable wall (as their main force is ranged).

In case of orcs their cheap wall might be some kind of wooden palisade with spikes (that kind that has a decent damage on counterattacks but is impassable).

[makazuwr32]

I think that for elves it might have more sense to have 2 different kind of walls also in terms of concept. Maybe a more solid wall without regeneration but with stats similar to the human or orcish wall. I think that elves are the ones that would receive a higher benefit from a solid impassable wall (as their main force is ranged).

In case of orcs their cheap wall might be some kind of wooden palisade with spikes (that kind that has a decent damage on counterattacks but is impassable).

Thorn bush will be tough to destroy, especially because of thorns and regeneration (second will not have actual regeneration but it will be able to mend itself like worker).

For thorn bush i want next things:
First strike
Full counter
Regen
And being much more tough than other walls (it is really hard to hit those thorny vines of bush thus high values of armors, especially p.armor)

With this you won't be able to use easily any random infantries against this wall (it can kill your unit before attack). Maybe attack value must be increased.

Hm... As for orcs i think we already have such barricade ready. It is right now fully neutral but later can be used as orcish cheap wall.

[DreJaDe]

What about just land wall or earth wall for elves addition.

I mean, they are like have a great elemental power right?

[Anchar]

I do not see that in this game the elves have enormous elemental power. I think that the elves should not be given strong walls, but strong towers in which they will flee from anti archers.

[Savra]

I think that for elves it might have more sense to have 2 different kind of walls also in terms of concept. Maybe a more solid wall without regeneration but with stats similar to the human or orcish wall. I think that elves are the ones that would receive a higher benefit from a solid impassable wall (as their main force is ranged).

In case of orcs their cheap wall might be some kind of wooden palisade with spikes (that kind that has a decent damage on counterattacks but is impassable).

Thorn bush will be tough to destroy, especially because of thorns and regeneration (second will not have actual regeneration but it will be able to mend itself like worker).

For thorn bush i want next things:
First strike
Full counter
Regen
And being much more tough than other walls (it is really hard to hit those thorny vines of bush thus high values of armors, especially p.armor)

With this you won't be able to use easily any random infantries against this wall (it can kill your unit before attack). Maybe attack value must be increased.

Hm... As for orcs i think we already have such barricade ready. It is right now fully neutral but later can be used as orcish cheap wall.

I wouldn't say armour would be the thorn bushes main focus as thorn bushes can be cut fairly easily, but maybe a miss chance or something.

Anyway we could go with 2 options for elves here:
Cheap wall: thicket brush
Mend
Can build thicket brush
Entangles

Tough wall: wall of wood or green Barrier
Similar to human and orc walls
Can be effected by tree top archery techs.

For the undeads cheap wall, the flesh one, perhaps a form of blob or something might fit? I have an idea in mind for this.

For orcs, the spiked barrier could work, but I had plans of making a stone quarry which could either garrison 2 units inside or it would be effected by that eruption tech that's currently pending for orcs that allows it to damage all units around it, but we could make it so that it doesn't effect volcanoes, shelters, sea vents, obsidian blockades and stone piles. It might even be called a stone vent.

[makazuwr32]

I do not like idea of wall that is affected by treetop archery.
As for me none of walls should have carry cap.

I prefer more to update thorn bush as really tough wall (not as tough as human/orcish ones) with highest possible p.armor (200 or even higher), full damage on counter and first strike (with this it will be really challenging to kill this armor in melee because of first strike). Miss chance i think do not fit well (especially because miss chance is halved against units with bonuses) thus i prefer to make a bit higher than normally armor that will show that it is harder to hit thorn bush.
As for "it is easy to cut thorn bushes" i see them as something REALLY—REALLY thick bush with thousands of twigs and cutting eash twig is just too annoying and hard.

Thicket wall sounds well as name but it must have no attack and/or any additional features apart from being able to duplicate itself one way or another (this is already really powerful).

Definately no for even more tough wall for orcs with carry cap. 2 types walls with carry cap is just way too much.

[Savra]

For the orcs stone quarry I meant either it could be garrisoned or we could make it impassable with no garrison but have eruption instead. But if we want to go down spike barrier path then I could always combine that with the pallisades so it looks more like a wall. I might make a gate as well.

For elves my suggestion would be this:
Thorn bush- cheap wall
Can mend
Can build more thorn bushes
(New) can grant nearby structures encasing thorns granting them full damage on counter and some damage, not stackable. Doesn't effect thorn bushes.

Wall of wood- costly wall
Can regen
Can grant nearby structures encasing wood, granting them bonus armour, maybe stackable. Effects wall of wood. I may even be able to make a gate for this too.

Both the encasing abilities are auras.

The thicket could be a summon for the wood shaper that could act as a temporary defence on the field. It could be passable by elves as well.

Undead I have another suggestion which would be brimstone walls as a costly wall instead. We could give it auras of poison and burning researched at the tc.

@Alexander82 what do you think?

[makazuwr32]

I do not like thorn bush without full counter and first strike. I see no reason for auras at this point for walls.

As for stone quarry - eruption is too much for a wall i'd say.

Elves will get a summonable permanent low toughness wall (that will not count as fortification though) summonable by one of arcane casters. It will be not natural but more like magical barrier.

Brimstone wall???...... It will be really easy flammable.

[Savra]

Thorn bush- can still get it's first strike and full counter.

The auras were something additional that would give elves a little up.

As for orcs, unless something changed on the ability range, eruption was just a 1 range attack with long cool and effects everything around it. The orcs volcano based structures would be ok immune to this however all other structures like the wooden ones and other factories would be effected.

Plus I think the eruption ability would still require research.

As for the brimstone wall it was just a minor idea if we wanted to go that route.

[Savra]

Btw, this is what I meant by wall of wood:

[Savra]

Apparently I have to redo my dwarven wall set remake since the walls aren't lining up properly, but it should be easier to put in after I remake it as their was a lot of unnecessary wall sets in the the string. So I'll fix that before moving on to the rest of these real quick.

Then I'll work on the wall of wood and it's set.

[makazuwr32]

i prefer still thorn bush to be the tough one because it will be more painful to destroy it than due to counter attacks.

[Savra]

This be true, but that's why I prefer it to be the cheap wall, as a wall of wood which is basically a bunch of tightly grown together would make more sense as a tough wall, as it does cover more and in a reasonable sense it acts more like a wall were the thorn bush- seems more like a barricade. Basically in comparison it is like comparing a caltrops to a pallisades, one is more sturdy and is often used to defend heavier fortified defences while the other is meant to hinder the enemy advances for a shorter period but can take out a few units in the process.

[makazuwr32]

my reasoning is to make tough wall of elves also as a pain for going through it for enemies. literally a pain.
also thorn bush can be made not from just a bunch of thorn branches but from thousands and thousands of thorn branches. Such thing is rreally hard to cut through, harder than actual thick wood.

[Savra]

Still, they are more like front line defences we're all the action is while the tougher wood walls would be rear defences, being they are tougher. Thorns may be tougher together, however they aren't big enough to be considered a wall, more so a barricade, while a wall of wood would most likely tower over most the enemies making it difficult to hit the units hiding behind it. The wall of wood is actually a combination of many trees together, the more there is the harder they are to knock down.

[Anchar]

Why don't you do both? Let the players choose between walls and thickets. If the walls look too powerful then add technology to exploring them. In my opinion, the game is planning some sun elves as a sub-faction who are rumored to have armor and look like humans. Why not add different structures to the subfractions? This would add value to them.

[Savra]

Players will have access to both thorn bushes and wall of wood, the problem is just whether we should have thorn bushes be the cheap defences with the previous abilities plus the additional ones mak suggested, and make the wall of wood be a tough wall with its own specialty.

The rising sun elves might add to these defences with their own but that's for later in the future as these first 2 effect the main race as a whole, so it's not locked behind a sub. Also rising sun elves I believe still have some nature basis to their stuff, however they just are more advanced in terms of technology and equipment compared to other elves.

[Savra]

Hmm, maybe we can make it so that the wall of wood can regrow if destroyed, so it leaves sprouts that, after 3 to 5 turns, will transform back into a wall of wood.

You won't be able to destroy the sprouts by attacking them either as you would have to step on them like a corpse to destroy them. Basically trampling them underfoot.

[Savra]

This should work.

W E WNE WSE WNES NE NW SE SW NS W-NE E-NW W-NE E-NE WE EW

[Savra]

Wall of wood, however if you want I could add greenery.

[DreJaDe]

Wall of wood, however if you want I could add greenery.

The woods looks so dry, it could easily be burned.

Is that intended

[Savra]

Actually, even having trees or most kinds of plants that close together would make them quite burnable. Dry or not.

But I could always make it more greener and pailer still so that some details are more visible.

[Anchar]

This wall looks more like a dead tree, in my imagination it looked different.

[Savra]

Updated.

[Anchar]

The image is very good, but it looks more like a new version of the elven tower. For example, in the image, the space on the sides is empty, as if you can get around there. It seems to me that the wall should be attached to the adjacent one like the one you drew for the dwarfs.

[Savra]

That's the plan.

It will kinda look like the Undead's bone wall set.
So it will be simple to put in.

[Alexander82]

I was considering for elves an actual wall instead of 2 plant based wall. Maybe a palisade if we go cheap or a proper stone wall if we make it the main one.