Equites too weak?

[b2198]

It seems to me that equites are a bit underpowered, since even when the optimal conditions for training them are met (which I believe is against both cavalry and medium/heavy infantry, and with all possible buffs and auras), they still don't do that much and are easily killed afterwards.

Checking their numbers, they scale like knights against foot units, and only a little bit over half as well as lancers (albeit with more fixed bonus damage) against mounted units, which makes them deal:

• 11(base stats) to 16 (all 3 centurion auras + fervor) damage against [Mounted]
• 16 to 23 damage against [Heavy Cavalry][Slow]
• 14 to 20 damage against:
  • [Medium Cavalry], except [Lance]
  • [Mounted][Ranged]
  • [Chariot]
• 18 to 25 damage against [Heavy Cavalry], except [Slow]
• 22 to 30 damage against [Elephant]
• 6 to 11 damage against [Light Infantry]
• 7 to 13 damage against:
  • [Ranged][Flesh and blood]
  • [Medium Infantry]
  • [Irregular Infantry]
  • [Siege machine]
• 8 to 15 damage against [Heavy Infantry]
• 10 to 18 damage against [Armored Siege Machine]

Which makes me think they should have light cavalry scaling against foot units, and a bit higher percentages against mounted units, something like:

• +50%+4 against [Mounted]
• +95%+9 against [Heavy Cavalry][Slow]
• +85%+7 against:
  • [Medium Cavalry], except [Lance]
  • [Mounted][Ranged]
  • [Chariot]
• +100%+10 against [Heavy Cavalry], except [Slow]
• +120%+14 against [Elephant]
• +90% against:
  • [Ranged][Flesh and blood]
  • [Melee][Foot]
  • [Siege machine]
  • [Healer]

Making their damage now this:

• 11 to 17 against [Mounted]
• 18 to 26 against [Heavy Cavalry][Slow]
• 16 to 23 against:
  • [Medium Cavalry], except [Lance]
  • [Mounted][Ranged]
  • [Chariot]
• 20 to 28 against [Heavy Cavalry], except [Slow]
• 25 to 33 against [Elephant]
• 9 to 17 against:
  • [Ranged][Flesh and blood]
  • [Melee][Foot]
  • [Siege machine]
  • [Healer]

That would make them somewhat efficient as light cavalry (although still not nearly as much as the light cavalry line), and give a little more relevance to their anti-cavalry damage (although still keeping them way weaker than the lancer line) (and they are still considerably less durable than both lines, even with the physician buff)

[DreJaDe]

Isn't part of the reason why they are weak is because they are all around type?

I kinda have a different idea... Well, mostly because they aren't supposed to be stronger or a killer type of cavalry.

There are two.
One
A knight that cost 3 turns... Not a literal one but basically knight type unit if cost 3 turns.

Two
Balance it out as 4 turn unit
Still an all around type of cavalry... Still not that much damage but higher health and speed 5.

[b2198]

Isn't part of the reason why they are weak is because they are all around type?

Definitely, and that's why even with this buff they would still remain to be a lot weaker than the light cavalry line and the lancer line against their specific counters, but what I'm saying is that even for an all-around unit, their current damage is way too low.

[Endru1241]

All around and fast unit.
Someone proposed a mix between light cavalry and lancer, so I got it.
The proposed increase of anti mounted bonuses don't seem excessive, but with +90% light cav bonus, they are barely any worse than light cav. That seems too much.

[Endru1241]

Isn't part of the reason why they are weak is because they are all around type?

I kinda have a different idea... Well, mostly because they aren't supposed to be stronger or a killer type of cavalry.

There are two.
One
A knight that cost 3 turns... Not a literal one but basically knight type unit if cost 3 turns.

Two
Balance it out as 4 turn unit
Still an all around type of cavalry... Still not that much damage but higher health and speed 5.

Both would be good balance wise, but cheap knight may not fit romans.
Having equites retain speed and get better stats would be easy with higher cost.
Instead of knight like we could add more anti-heavy foot knight with the look of some a little bit special legionary. Or e.g. change pretorian like that.

[b2198]

but with +90% light cav bonus, they are barely any worse than light cav. That seems too much.

They are still considerably worse.

Suggested Equites damage against those units: 9 (base stats) to 17 (all 3 centurion auras that apply to them + fervor)

Light Cavalry damage against them: 11 (base stats) to 19 (blacksmith techs + morale + fervor) (or even 24, if you count battlefield blacksmith buff, but since he's not used that much this is only for completion sake, as without it is already a big difference).

Elite Light Cavalry damage: 14 to 21 (or even 27)

Ace Light Cavalry damage: 16 to 23 (or even 29)

Ace Light Cavalry damage is enough to one-shot most cheaper archers and anti-cavalry light infantry (before they get reach), while equites' isn't (they still can't even one-shot master skirmishers if they get +1 armor from battlefield techs or morale aura). Also due to the base damage, the light cavalry line can take down unupgraded factories (of 20 hp) in (at best) 2 hits, while they need (at best) 3, and workers and laborers in a single hit, while they need 2.

Ace Light Cavalry also has a little more hp (21 vs their 20 with physician, or 18 without) and is able to be trained from any TC, making large-scale usage of them a lot easier. And they both have the same armor (unless you use a battlefield blacksmith. In that case, Ace Light Cavalry would have +1/+1 more)

So they do get stronger a bit faster than light cavalry (as usual for most roman units when comparing to culture neutral ones), but still get outscaled pretty significantly at the end, and are harder to mass produce.



But maybe +90% right away would be too big of a change to do in one go, so instead of that perhaps they could get +70% (making their damage be 8 to 15 instead) now and then later that could be checked again to see how well they are doing?



Edit: One thing I just remembered is the aenator aura, that makes them have 7 speed, so maybe removing that possibility instead to increase their strength like this would be an option?

[DreJaDe]

Both would be good balance wise, but cheap knight may not fit romans.

The way I see it many times. Romans used their cavalry as more of a defending unit to defend their infantry which in a sense... I'm thinking of them as more of tank units that can hold their ground instead of the current which is a light cav that can go against all but at the same time... So weak against all.

Having equites retain speed and get better stats would be easy with higher cost.

I guess current one being balanced to a higher cost might be nicer. Though are they really that fast?

Instead of knight like we could add more anti-heavy foot knight with the look of some a little bit special legionary. Or e.g. change pretorian like that.

I think I've once read an idea of yours to make heavy having counter against heavy which I like more but yeah... Romans does need a heavy foot counter. On another note. If heavy counters heavy... The hastati line would be even weaker.

[Endru1241]

but with +90% light cav bonus, they are barely any worse than light cav. That seems too much.

They are still considerably worse.

Suggested Equites damage against those units: 9 (base stats) to 17 (all 3 centurion auras that apply to them + fervor)

Light Cavalry damage against them: 11 (base stats) to 19 (blacksmith techs + morale + fervor) (or even 24, if you count battlefield blacksmith buff, but since he's not used that much this is only for completion sake, as without it is already a big difference).

Elite Light Cavalry damage: 14 to 21 (or even 27)

Ace Light Cavalry damage: 16 to 23 (or even 29)

Ace Light Cavalry damage is enough to one-shot most cheaper archers and anti-cavalry light infantry (before they get reach), while equites' isn't (they still can't even one-shot master skirmishers if they get +1 armor from battlefield techs or morale aura). Also due to the base damage, the light cavalry line can take down unupgraded factories (of 20 hp) in (at best) 2 hits, while they need (at best) 3, and workers and laborers in a single hit, while they need 2.

Ace Light Cavalry also has a little more hp (21 vs their 20 with physician, or 18 without) and is able to be trained from any TC, making large-scale usage of them a lot easier. And they both have the same armor (unless you use a battlefield blacksmith. In that case, Ace Light Cavalry would have +1/+1 more)

So they do get stronger a bit faster than light cavalry (as usual for most roman units when comparing to culture neutral ones), but still get outscaled pretty significantly at the end, and are harder to mass produce.



But maybe +90% right away would be too big of a change to do in one go, so instead of that perhaps they could get +70% (making their damage be 8 to 15 instead) now and then later that could be checked again to see how well they are doing?



Edit: One thing I just remembered is the aenator aura, that makes them have 7 speed, so maybe removing that possibility instead to increase their strength like this would be an option?

And that was exactly the point.
They cannot be used as replacement of light cavalry roaming around back lines and killing off archers etc.
Their sole purpose was to be used as cavalry support of infantry (finishing hit moving from safe position).
And to get some usefulness and historical accurracy - additionally as some way to go against cavalry.
So I'd rather only increase anti-mounted bonuses, maybe along with some increase in hp.

[b2198]

And that was exactly the point.
They cannot be used as replacement of light cavalry roaming around back lines and killing off archers etc.
Their sole purpose was to be used as cavalry support of infantry (finishing hit moving from safe position).
And to get some usefulness and historical accurracy - additionally as some way to go against cavalry.
So I'd rather only increase anti-mounted bonuses, maybe along with some increase in hp.

Hm, I see, that's fair then.