Reform: Anti tank units reform suggestion

[DreJaDe]

Anti Tank units suggested changes

The decrease of Light tank bonus is to buff light tanks and also because they are harder to hit due to their speed and smallness.

All AT gunner (none skill unit) will have 1 speed slow per hit against vehicles and tanks that will last for 3 turns when hit but can be removed instantly when mended.

Germany

Volkssturm
15 HP→20HP

Panzer Faust

Damage
19 →17

Can't be used when garrisoned (eg. Concrete artillery, bunkers, town.)
On Volkssturm, their panzerfaust should have 5 CD.

Still quite powerful for a militia and although they have pamzerfaust, even trained soldier have a hard time using hitting using it so giving it a 5 CD should be fine.

20HP also in my other infantry changes suggestion let's then survive some of the damage caused by grenades and such.

Panzerjager

Hafthohlladung
Needs 2nd industry to be used

Panzergranadier
Cost: 3→2
42HP → 35

Panzer Faust
Damage
19 → 17

Can't be used when garrisoned (eg. Concrete artillery, bunkers, town.)

I decreased their cost because they are just as useful as their SMG. Decreased their HP because of the panzerfaust ability which when used releases a lot of smoke.

In my MG suggestion also, 35 HP is still quite powerful, being 2nd or 3rd to 40-42hp.


Panzerschreck RPzB 43 Infantry
Cost: 3 → 2
35→ 25 HP

Can't attack when Garrisoned like Concrete artillery, bunkers but not Towns.

Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 2000%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1500%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

I decreased its HP because they are open when attacking, the smoke also reveals their position so they are easy to take out. I do decreased their cost cause there are still a lot of them made and for game balance.

British PIAT →PIAT Infantry
30 HP →42 HP

Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1300%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

It's harder to spot and the task of using PIAT is usually given to the more skilled soldiers.

US Bazooka M1
Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 900%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

Stuns tanks for 2 turns when hit
Can't attack when Garrisoned like Concrete artillery, bunkers but not Towns.

The record of Bazooka is quite absurd honestly... Inadequate but with resourceful people using them, they were even able to knock out Tigers and Jagtigers. As state by Paton, it was to hunt tanks but to stop tanks before it tramples his soldiers which is the reason why I gave it a 2 turn stun.

Japan Lunge anti tank → Lunge Anti-tank infantry

Needs 3rd industry tech
Attack power
1.5→2
35HP→25HP

Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1500%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1000%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

It's actually quite powerful but too dangerous to use. Ineffective with the Ally tank doctrine but it's damage when successful is better than PIAT.

Didn't add some of the changes like Light tank nerf because they literally attach the bomb to the tank

Japan Type4 AT rockets →Type4 AT rocket Infantry
Needs 3rd industry tech
Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1000%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

Russian Bazooka M1 → Soviet Bazooka M1
Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1000%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

[TntAttack]

Refining on this idea:

I propose:

-AT rifleman to counter light tanks, sucks against medium and above.

-Light tanks invulnerable/takes less damage from anti tank ability from infantry as they are small and fast, harder to hit. (Debatable)

Also counters infantry.

Anti tank abilities e.g. smgs, are designed to counter medium tanks.

Medium tanks counter light tanks.

Heavy tanks counter medium tanks.

[DreJaDe]

The tank counters doesn't really work like that but in terms of AT rifles. I'll try to name them to make their use more defined. Like changing German MG to Mg42 gunner which means that the stats of the gun needs now to be considered.

[Jasondunkel]

Anti Tank units suggested changes

The decrease of Light tank bonus is to buff light tanks and also because they are harder to hit due to their speed and smallness.

Germany

Volkssturm
15 HP→20HP

Panzer Faust

Damage
19 →17

Can't be used when garrisoned (eg. Concrete artillery, bunkers, town.)
On Volkssturm, their panzerfaust should have 5 CD.

Still quite powerful for a militia and although they have pamzerfaust, even trained soldier have a hard time using hitting using it so giving it a 5 CD should be fine.

20HP also in my other infantry changes suggestion let's then survive some of the damage caused by grenades and such.

Panzerjager

Hafthohlladung
Needs 2nd industry to be used

Panzergranadier
Cost: 3→2
42HP → 35

Panzer Faust
Damage
19 → 17

Can't be used when garrisoned (eg. Concrete artillery, bunkers, town.)

I decreased their cost because they are just as useful as their SMG. Decreased their HP because of the panzerfaust ability which when used releases a lot of smoke.

In my MG suggestion also, 35 HP is still quite powerful, being 2nd or 3rd to 40-42hp.


Panzerschreck RPzB 43 Infantry
Cost: 3 → 2
35→ 25 HP

Can't attack when Garrisoned like Concrete artillery, bunkers but not Towns.

Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 2000%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1500%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

I decreased its HP because they are open when attacking, the smoke also reveals their position so they are easy to take out. I do decreased their cost cause there are still a lot of them made and for game balance.

British PIAT →PIAT Infantry
30 HP →42 HP

Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1300%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

It's harder to spot and the task of using PIAT is usually given to the more skilled soldiers.

US Bazooka M1
Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 900%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

Stuns tanks for 2 turns when hit
Can't attack when Garrisoned like Concrete artillery, bunkers but not Towns.

The record of Bazooka is quite absurd honestly... Inadequate but with resourceful people using them, they were even able to knock out Tigers and Jagtigers. As state by Paton, it was to hunt tanks but to stop tanks before it tramples his soldiers which is the reason why I gave it a 2 turn stun.

Japan Lunge anti tank → Lunge Anti-tank infantry

Needs 3rd industry tech
Attack power
1.5→2
35HP→25HP

Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1500%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1000%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

It's actually quite powerful but too dangerous to use. Ineffective with the Ally tank doctrine but it's damage when successful is better than PIAT.

Didn't add some of the changes like Light tank nerf because they literally attach the bomb to the tank

Japan Type4 AT rockets →Type4 AT rocket Infantry
Needs 3rd industry tech
Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1000%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

Russian Bazooka M1 → Soviet Bazooka M1
Bonus against heavy tanks
700% → 1300%
Bonus against medium tanks
800% → 1000%
Bonus against light tanks
%1100 →%900

the volkssturm is a gathering of very old people and very young people increasing the HP is nice but not absolutely necessary from their actual power
the cooldown is a little too high because the germans made the different bazookas in such large quantities that there was actually always one there. I would set the cooldown to 3, then the Volkssturm might even have a chance to shoot a second time

with all equipment like the bazooka that is shouldered to use it can certainly fire from the normal bunker. At least the Germans had bunkers with anti-tank guns in them. i.e. there was a large opening where you could start.
but they shouldn't be able to shoot at the fixed artillery/aa, that might reduce the spam there a bit too

The adhesive charge as well as the Japanese anti-tank lung should in turn not be able to shoot out of any bunker or similar things, they are close combat weapons after all

all shoulder weapons should come at industry lvl II at the earliest

[DreJaDe]

the cooldown is a little too high because the germans made the different bazookas in such large quantities that there was actually always one there. I would set the cooldown to 3, then the Volkssturm might even have a chance to shoot a second time

Yes, they are high which I decided to put because although there are a lot, normal soldiers already have a hard time hitting with them, what if the militia?

For soldiers, the rate is

"There avg rate is 2500/1 tank kill. Or 3% of the tanks kills on the eastern front."

Unless they can have lesser damage on their panzerfaust than other who have them, im even ok with them having 3 CD.

with all equipment like the bazooka that is shouldered to use it can certainly fire from the normal bunker. At least the Germans had bunkers with anti-tank guns in them. i.e. there was a large opening where you could start.

That's what I meant by the bunkers. Sry. Concrete bunker.

The adhesive charge as well as the Japanese anti-tank lung should in turn not be able to shoot out of any bunker or similar things, they are close combat weapons after all

It's use is so close range which I think it's fine. It's HP is also is quite weak. And they should be able to reach out to lounge it to a tank.

all shoulder weapons should come at industry lvl II at the earliest

Most already are. The Japanese are just set to 3rd because they have theirs in 1944

[Dahdee]

I'm posting this in regard to AT rifle infantry only: AT rifle infantry should inflict slow. AT rifles injure crew and damage engines and tracks and at best may set the tank on fire if they fire incendiary rounds or detonate ammo inside the tank or something of that nature. They should be next to useless vs heavy and superheavy tanks, but they should have the slow effect. Also vs non combat vehicles like jeeps and trucks they should get a hefty damage bonus, since it is an anti materiel weapon and it's just going to punch a hole straight through that. That bonus should also apply to certain combat units like the Soviet missile launcher truck, I forget what it's called, but it's basically just a truck with a rocket launcher rack mounted in the bed. Vehicles like that should be very susceptible to damage from an anti materiel rifle.

[Dahdee]

I forgot to mention slow should stack, representing the ability to stop the tank after repeated attacks, but not necessarily destroying it as if it were hit by a large caliber AP or HE round.

[TntAttack]

AT rifle infantry should inflict slow. AT rifles injure crew and damage engines and tracks and at best may set the tank on fire if they fire incendiary rounds or detonate ammo inside the tank or something of that nature. They should be next to useless vs heavy and superheavy tanks, but they should have the slow effect.

Quite the idea! Would make me use AT infantry if it does. Does the slow effect extend to medium tanks, as light tanks are almost if not 1 shotted by AT infantry (if memory serves me right).

[Dahdee]

AT rifle infantry should inflict slow. AT rifles injure crew and damage engines and tracks and at best may set the tank on fire if they fire incendiary rounds or detonate ammo inside the tank or something of that nature. They should be next to useless vs heavy and superheavy tanks, but they should have the slow effect.

Quite the idea! Would make me use AT infantry if it does. Does the slow effect extend to medium tanks, as light tanks are almost if not 1 shotted by AT infantry (if memory serves me right).

Yes. Absolutely. That's going to be the whole point of the change. They should be able to slow tanks in general, regardless of the size. Lets face reality, they won't survive more than one attack on anything bigger than a medium. Their damage should not change at all. Simply add the slow penalty and they become useful and realistic.

[Dahdee]

In relation to the length of the effect, each slow should only effect the unit for a couple of turns, like 3 turns max. Reflecting the tank crew's ability to make repairs. The AT rifle units would be a support unit. Maybe increase cost of them to 3 to reflect their rarity, and to avoid making that slow ability too OP through spamming of AT rifle.

[Dahdee]

Concept of the AT rifle being used vs all classes of tanks is the fact that it's attacking vulnerable points of the tank at close range (they were not long range weapons). They are attacking things like view ports, tracks, exposed parts of engine, etc. Areas of vulnerability. I'd certainly say give them a penalty vs heavy and superheavy, but they should still have a chance to make an attack, albeit with much more difficulty. If a player wishes to gamble a 3 turn unit with very little chance of success they should be allowed to do so. Maybe make the slow effect success dependent on a percentage. Like 60% for light, 40% for med, 20% for heavy, 10% for superheavy. Actual damage stats remain as is.

[Jasondunkel]

Concept of the AT rifle being used vs all classes of tanks is the fact that it's attacking vulnerable points of the tank at close range (they were not long range weapons). They are attacking things like view ports, tracks, exposed parts of engine, etc. Areas of vulnerability. I'd certainly say give them a penalty vs heavy and superheavy, but they should still have a chance to make an attack, albeit with much more difficulty. If a player wishes to gamble a 3 turn unit with very little chance of success they should be allowed to do so. Maybe make the slow effect success dependent on a percentage. Like 60% for light, 40% for med, 20% for heavy, 10% for superheavy. Actual damage stats remain as is.

That's a nice idea, but from what I've known about engin so far, she probably won't be able to do it
what do you say @Stratego (dev)

[DreJaDe]

That's a nice idea, but from what I've known about engin so far, she probably won't be able to do it
what do you say @Stratego (dev)

This is definitely possible though might not be as what he said.

A -1 speed slow active effect could be given and can be set to stackable.

[Stratego (dev)]

this seems stucked
- can we get to a conclusion some way?
- if anyone has yet responed please ask him to.
- if i am wrong and here is a conclusion somewhere please summarize me

thanks!

Maybe make the slow effect success dependent

yes, we can make effect to slow target, and maybe yes i think it can work based on success percentage.

[Dahdee]

I like the suggestions for the new anti tank weapons. I think it will give more depth to the game. as for the AT rifle I definitely think slow should be percentage based and not a sure thing, and the effect should stack, enabling you to halt the machine if enough successful attacks are made before the crew can recover/repair the vehicle.

[SS-Jericho]

The shoulder Anti tank weapons can already be implemented since their changes makes them a lot useful instead of spamming smgs to counter tanks. Their changes wont make them OP since they wont one shot tanks and they are easy to kill (especially if you buff riflemen which i will suggest). This also favours new players, these upgrades are at the top of the row.

Though I have few changes to suggest/things to say to justify drejades suggestion

Volksstrum - Jasondunkel has a point, no reason to increase their hp, their 4 cooldown of panzerfaust is fair enough and their damage will be reduced already.

The Panzerjager's Hafthohlladung is already a tech ii required so no changes needed.

Panzergrenadier - Its tier down is not bad, they are just stronger grenadiers and well equiped. Though they should be included in riflemen buff (damage vs infantry)
Panzerfaust - 19 -> 17 is fine since they really have a short range.

Pzschrek low hp and 2 turns is just balanced. They really do produced more smoke than other AT.

British PIAT - damage vs medium tanks should be increased more by 100%. Its users are trained and it can also be used as indirect fire. Plus its 3 turns, which is also okay since they are really difficult to use. HP buff is good

M1 bazooka US - it's cost should be reduced 3 -> 2 turns. Its damage to heavy tanks is justified, since the m1 bazooka was used as a last resort AT weapon for tanks that try to overrun them. Thus there are reports of them killing heavy tanks by targetting weaker parts.
Its damage vs building should also be increased by 100% since they were design for shooting forward structures than as an AT-weapon.

It should also not have stun effect since it only happens when it did not fully penetrate weaker parts (injurin/killing driver, gunner, loader). Stun also happens to other AT, grenades, & tanks.

Lunge anti tank - This should be more of an ability; kamikaze. Since it kill or fully expose its user after being used.
Ability - kamikaze - effect to self (-9999)
Damage - 19 (deflected by armor) (vehicle/tanks)
Bonus - 19 (tanks)
Total damage of 38 because their charge were stable after sticking and ables to penetrate successfully(if im not wrong). They are not bad since its still require tech 3.

The type 4 rocket and soviet M1 bazooka is okay. The rocket was only designed for mainland invasion while the bazooka was a lend lease.

Shoulder weapon AT having less damage to light tanks makes sense, since these AT also have lower rate of fire compared to the AT rifles.

--------
As for the AT rifle suggestion, its good since they are also useful for killing light armour and early medium tanks. Since smg AT grenades were only used when tanks try to overrun infantry, while AT rifle has better range at countering armor.


Edit: Also reduce PIAT explosion armor 4 --> 1 . It currently have high armour.