Decreasing mine spammability

[phoenixffyrnig]

Let's say it's my regret about mines.
Maybe I am overthinking and only mines with their intrinsic scheme to be build indefinitely are the problem

Although I will also admit that mines are a bit too necessary right now

I have similar feelings. What if mines had a limited life span to reflect finite resources? Say (just a number for arguments sake) 30 turns and it was all mined out, then the mine would disappear, and a new one would need to be built? (we were discussing this elsewhere, and apparently a TC related upper limit to their numbers is not possible right now?)

[Endru1241]

Like mentioned in other topic there is some problem with mines.
Mines have intrinsic scheme to be build indefinitely, which mostly is the problem with micromanagement increase.

Well, I do like the mechanics of mines, because:

1. They are a big factor of calculated risk in the matches.
2. Their currency is basically turns, which can also be spent and gained relative to another player by other ways (ex: turn-effective trades, tactics in general, vision denial)
3. Carts themselves are not really combat units (though they are semi-decent anti-archer blockades due to their p. armor) (and can also protect an important unit, like a trebuchet, by surrouding it and not letting the opponent get nearby in time to stop it, this one might start to become a problem after all those buff stacking changes, since it'll become harder to kill multiple units at once... or maybe won't become a problem at all, that's just speculation on my part), so you can't really win the game with the carts alone, you still have to choose which units to accelerate the production of, and choosing wrong can also cost you some of those turns later on.
4. In general (although I admit that at least some mines are absolutely required for any match in maps of size 30x30 and bigger that have experienced players on both sides), the amount of mines is not really crucial to determining the winning side. Way more crucial are the choices of units, usage of tactics, logistics management (which include carts, but also other things, like siege machines, wagons and workers), adaptability and overall strategy from both sides to determine the winner.
5. They require either to improve terrain that wouldn't be very useful otherwise or to reduce your free space nearby, and space is important for movement, building things and for applying buffs, so just covering your entire base in mines usually wouldn't be the best idea, and it encourages the player to expand their territory if they want more mines.

Although I will also admit that mines are a bit too necessary right now (and probably for a good amount of time already), so I wouldn't be against nerfs to, for example, the cart production cost.

Maybe also removing the rng entirely would make it less of a micromanagement issue? Like letting players choose which carts they want, for example:
salt cart - 3 turns. With summons, every 3 turns cost would become 1 turn of production
mineral cart - 7 turns. With summons, every 3.5 turns cost would become 1 turn of production
silver cart - 7 turns. With summons, every 3.5. turns cost would become 1 turn of production
gold cart - 13 turns. With summons, every 3.25 turns cost would become 1 turn of production (for boosting production directly, would get +1 turn in comparison to silver cart, but takes way longer to make)
gem cart - 19 turns. With summons, every 3.166... turns cost would become 1 turn of production (for boosting production directly, would get +2 turns in comparison to silver cart, but takes waaay longer to make)
Not sure if this would work. Probably an overnerf.

I think I got "a little" offtopic there...

[b2198]

Let's say it's my regret about mines.
Maybe I am overthinking and only mines with their intrinsic scheme to be build indefinitely are the problem

I have similar feelings. What if mines had a limited life span to reflect finite resources? Say (just a number for arguments sake) 30 turns and it was all mined out, then the mine would disappear, and a new one would need to be built? (we were discussing this elsewhere, and apparently a TC related upper limit to their numbers is not possible right now?)

Along with that, would it be possible to change terrain on mine expiration (so at the moment the leaving effect ends), so that it doesn't allow other mines to be placed there, but allows movement through the tile by all units and building factories there? Mines are also used to "forcefully clear terrain" by placing a mine, building a road or stone road on it with builder ability, then deleting the mine, so that it becomes a normal tile, opening up space for movement and building, so that would help the "expiring mines" to do that job more directly.

[Endru1241]

This doesn't look too good, but I have tried to split the topic to prevent too off-topic discussion.

What I mainly mean is that one single miner can start building mines and just continue until the end of the match.
And while it's similar to defences/siege/ships there is one great difference - mines have a production of their own, which can boost production of new miners to have more and more until there is no more space.

Let's say it's my regret about mines.
Maybe I am overthinking and only mines with their intrinsic scheme to be build indefinitely are the problem

Although I will also admit that mines are a bit too necessary right now

I have similar feelings. What if mines had a limited life span to reflect finite resources? Say (just a number for arguments sake) 30 turns and it was all mined out, then the mine would disappear, and a new one would need to be built? (we were discussing this elsewhere, and apparently a TC related upper limit to their numbers is not possible right now?)

I think the biggest problem is that increasing spammability.
There was an idea to make miner unit be a sacrifice to build mine, but that looks out of place - why wouldn't it be able to just construct it normally after all.
Not sure if leaving could achieve similar end effect.

Along with that, would it be possible to change terrain on mine expiration (so at the moment the leaving effect ends), so that it doesn't allow other mines to be placed there, but allows movement through the tile by all units and building factories there? Mines are also used to "forcefully clear terrain" by placing a mine, building a road or stone road on it with builder ability, then deleting the mine, so that it becomes a normal tile, opening up space for movement and building, so that would help the "expiring mines" to do that job more directly.

Damn. That effect is undesirable.
I added [Utilises Roads] to mine, because it can be just placed on normal plains and why wouldn't there be possibility to build roads around.
I didn't take construction on hills into account.
It needs to be removed.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah, sorry Endru, we did wander far from the original topic.
The other problem with mines is that they are essentially necessary - if an opponent uses them and you don't, 99% of the time they will win, largely because they provide ever increasing advantage the longer the game goes on

to "forcefully clear terrain" by placing a mine, building a road

does this also work on mountain tiles? Wouldn't be too jarring to remove Utilises Roads - even if it is underground and roads are overground it is still a work site with all associated traffic - hard to expect completely unrestricted movement as with a highway.

There was an idea to make miner unit be a sacrifice to build mine

OK, here's a left-field idea which might necessitate some rebalancing, but what if mines needed a miner inside them to function? That would make them pretty useless in current form, but if some juggling was done, could this keep them in check yet still retain advantages/benefits to their use?

[Endru1241]

Yeah, sorry Endru, we did wander far from the original topic.
The other problem with mines is that they are essentially necessary - if an opponent uses them and you don't, 99% of the time they will win, largely because they provide ever increasing advantage the longer the game goes on

Don't worry - I have moved posts mainly to have it all more ordered to not loose myself in it.

to "forcefully clear terrain" by placing a mine, building a road

does this also work on mountain tiles? Wouldn't be too jarring to remove Utilises Roads - even if it is underground and roads are overground it is still a work site with all associated traffic - hard to expect completely unrestricted movement as with a highway.

Won't be a problem anymore - I have removed this category in my assets.

There was an idea to make miner unit be a sacrifice to build mine

OK, here's a left-field idea which might necessitate some rebalancing, but what if mines needed a miner inside them to function? That would make them pretty useless in current form, but if some juggling was done, could this keep them in check yet still retain advantages/benefits to their use?

Not possible by the current engine.
Although I wonder if I could make something related to sacrifice.
There is lingering idea in my mind:
- make mines have curse-like effect on start, that makes it unable to produce anything.
- make miners have ability with self-sacrifice, which decreases said curse-like effect by -50 or something (however long it starts with).
As effects, that decrease other effects lasting are only castable if targetable unit has such effect it shouldn't disrupt anything.
Not sure however if it's possible.

[Aral_Yaren]

Can it just be made that mines have separated building counter depending to TC controlled by players, that being said, one with 3 TC can build 3 mines and so on, and perhaps mine counter can also be shown in the upper-right black icon?

[Endru1241]

Can it just be made that mines have separated building counter depending to TC controlled by players, that being said, one with 3 TC can build 3 mines and so on, and perhaps mine counter can also be shown in the upper-right black icon?

Impossible in the engine.
It is however on the list of code change requests for AoS.

But any big change in regards to engine is set to be after unity engine migration.

[makazuwr32]

I think that mine must have life time after which it becomes tc-based exhausted mine or abandoned mine.

Can't be destroyed or deleted, can be captured, has some carry cap.

[Aral_Yaren]

To be neutral TC-like occupiable abandoned mine is annoying and troublesome, even for AoS MP.

1. AoS mine is 3 turn production consisting at least 8 carts to be produced randomly, not only a single cart. Binding mine to lifespan must be done carefully so it won't destroy AoS universe balance.

1.1. If any, the so-called abandoned mine must belong to the player's colour of the structure the moment it fades out so he can directly destroy the excess, so doesn't bother himself with "occupy - leave - destroy" cycle as unit's movement and turn is of the core essence of AoS strategy - any waste move just to do such cycle shall have severe punishment in MP (this is also sounds more realistic as even a country's mine is out of production, the mine still belong to the country as long as it could defend it).

1.2. To add, the importance of decreasement area issue that Breno has brought to attention shall play devil if the abandoned mine goes to neutral, and I've stated the reason above.

2. Lifespan shall decrease mine AoS efficiency a bit, as it will certainly happen that sometime mine produces less valuable cart strategically at once, like 3 salt carts produced out of 3 mines by chance (and the chance is there, enough to threat).

2.1. How long the lifespan might be adjusted, certainly must be higher than 6 turn (so enough for 2 production in such scheme, what a shame).

2.2. Currently (need correction) to make unit disappears after a periode of time is by leaving effect (like in mercs). To add leaving to mine will open possibility to lengthen its lifespan by paying leaving with valuables and AoS complex mine system has 7 carts that can pay leaving out of 8 carts, each lengthen from 2 turn (salt cart?) and more. This too need to be cautiously considered, if any.

[Endru1241]

Any kind of time limit to mine functioning is suggesting resources limit, but such a thing would only have happened after tens or hundreds of years.
But older mines where indeed producing less and less (needed to be mined deeper, which makes further production harder and pricier), but that made them mainly need more workforce to compensate.

But I manly don't like the idea, because, while limiting mines in reality it would also increase micromanagement.
You'd have to follow mine time limits as well, while still building the same amount of them.

With such method the only way to make games less micromanagement dependant would be to make mines not worthy enough to spend turns on miners - ergo useless.

I only wanted to decrease their number, especially on longer games, when having 5 miners you get new mine every other turn.

[godOfKings]

Wat if make miner unique per player, so each player can have 1 miner at a time(make new miner after old dies) so even if 1 player starts making mines ahead of others the difference wont b too big

[Endru1241]

Wat if make miner unique per player, so each player can have 1 miner at a time(make new miner after old dies) so even if 1 player starts making mines ahead of others the difference wont b too big

We'd then force players to use miners only for mine construction.
Any other usage (e.g. fast canal construction) would be a huge waste.
If it already isn't.

[b2198]

We'd then force players to use miners only for mine construction.
Any other usage (e.g. fast canal construction) would be a huge waste.
If it already isn't.

In some situations, it isn't a waste at all, since they can build them way faster than builders can and also are a bit more resistant than them. I've seen it used for that many times by and against me to connect water bodies, create shortcuts for ships in maps with rivers or simply to defend against an attack by not allowing it to actually reach you.

[Endru1241]

We'd then force players to use miners only for mine construction.
Any other usage (e.g. fast canal construction) would be a huge waste.
If it already isn't.

In some situations, it isn't a waste at all, since they can build them way faster than builders can and also are a bit more resistant than them. I've seen it used for that many times by and against me to connect water bodies, create shortcuts for ships in maps with rivers or simply to defend against an attack by not allowing it to actually reach you.

Right now - yes.

But if we'd force miner to be unique - I don't think so.
Would be too needed for mine construction.