The Phantom Update

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:13 pm

Well, I was originally making it transparent but it didn't seem to show as well as a solid colour, but thx.

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General Brave
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by General Brave » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:50 pm

The Juggernaut is impressive, as well as the knight. If use but otherwise the bull can be used for maps or as a basis for something else.
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Lynx Shafir
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Lynx Shafir » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:17 pm

Savra wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:34 am
Juggernaut, good.

Bull knight, although I still think they should have cavalry, at least 1, or something similar...
U can't accept NO, even from a DL :?

I should have suggest a 4 handed flying phantom what throws bombs.. Becouse there's no limit, right?
Eh


1.Other groups will be focused on mounted
2.You forget shadows from fallen armors
Some r unnatural,
Make more in pieces and less hight bc perspective
3.Unarmored ones will be wraiths
4 if you wanna play with models actually may help me, and make a transparent bluish dwarven ghost..

5.evwntually d might share training place "haunted garrison"
Thy gave me a sword to pierce a lie,
Serrated edge for the deamon inside
A moment I'm torn between two tides,
But all I need, I bear inside

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:20 pm

Actually he accepted the new juggernaut lynx, the cavalry I said would be fine for map editor only. The reason I wanted one in for phantoms is because it had some benefits that those other cavalry types didn't have which was, high armour, hp, attack, spell resistance, immunity to dot effects like poison and fire, and the ability to be revived. The downside was it would be slower, have no upgrades (I don't think), can't cross things like water and lava, doesn't have a active effect that coincides with attack. It didn't make other cavalry useless and it wasn't useless itself.

Haunted garrison I wouldn't agree with because ghosts could be placed in the crypt which needs more units, phantom garrison is for the phantoms because of them being more so advanced ghosts plus it houses the equipment they need to possess. Floating swords are also excepted which is why I made one as a summon for juggernaut.

If you wanted to see what the knights stats might have looked like:

Phantom knight:
Image
Trains: Necroplis, phantom garrison
Cost:8
Hp:80
Atk:26
Rng:1
Sight:6
Spd:5
Arm:4
P.arm:4
Res:100%
Bonuses:
50% bonus to infantry and siege

Basically it's a attack based version of the imperial knight, less armour but more hp, more attack but less speed.
Death knight has higher p.armour, speed, plus fireball and burning weapon, but less health, less attack, and less melee armour. Neeklevlin or whatever, most likely (by what I saw) will have good health, 2 actions, low armour (they don't wear any), good damage, good speed, and maybe lava walk being that they are a demon, and maybe burning weapon to if that suites you creators of it, if the other unholy knight your referring to is the spectral rider, it has low armour, lower hp, good attack, second chance after death, reanimation spell, eat corpse ability, ability to move across water at normal speed, and good speed as well.

In short, if you were choosing between the 4 of them, you'd be looking at distance and difficulty of the battle, if one is fighting groups of enemy's they choose neeklevlin (I'm not even going to try at correcting this at this point), if one was going to face heavily armoured enemies with pikemen, the phantom bull knight, if dealing with structures or burnible enemies like trolls and ents then death knight, if one has to cross a lot of water or needs a fast support unit with survivability, then spectral rider. Each has their use within the undead army, none are useless, and saying that phantoms aren't able to possess horse armour when this is just lying about:Image

Is unreasonable, for all we know a phantom horse possessed it. The point is that they are capable of doing it without problems. That was my point (or at least part of it).

Now you know part of my reasoning behind why I think phantoms can have but 1 cavalry, you can't just say that every other race is cavalry based but this one in the undead army because the reality is that for the races that are slower like phantoms and the such, cavalry are a necessity or they start losing their effectiveness in these points, otherwise phantoms would be the last thing people would research because demons are faster and have more uses on big maps and small ones. I can understand no cavalry for races like giants and minotaurs who are either as fast or too big to need them, phantoms on the other hand are neither of these things.

That's the second reason.

I don't know why @Alexander82 is against phantoms having cavalry in the first place when their are so many good reasons why they should, but I can settle for this being map editor only if he still prefers it to be out. I at least ask that you consider these things first before rushing to a decision though with a preferable good explanation on why they can't have them. Because unlike the "flying phantom with giant sword and throws bombs everywhere," thing, the knight actually makes sense.

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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:52 pm

A lot of posts on the topic...

Btw we have a few more pending knights that need scripting and undeads already rely a lot on cavalry.

I don't feel right now that phantoms NEED cavalry as the whole undead race has a bunch of them and that also makes it a bit too allergic to pointed sticks.

I don't really like much how mounted phantoms would look like and in general I always considered phantoms like animated decorative armors placed into the haunted mansion and it is pretty unusual to use bardings for that purpose.

I hope I explained my point (I do not expect nor demand you to agree with me but at least I want to make my thinking clear)
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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:11 pm

That would be good enough, do you have any ideas for an alternative fast phantom unit that could take its place. (Also could that cav still be used in map editor like I stated earlier? I'd hate to see all that work to go waste, and who knows maybe in future once they have more heavy hitters who aren't cav, maybe it could be put in. Some mansions do have a collection section were they would keep horse armor though I believe it would be rare, being that it depends on the owners intrests.)

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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:40 am

I've always stated I never say no to map editor content. Feel free to make as many design as you wish for that purpose.

About fast units for phantoms I will think about it mut I don't really think speed is what they are made for.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:50 pm

Well if the idea is a fast phantom, you could try to remake the Mail armor, while the average phantom is a hardhitting tank, the mail armor is way more lighter and flexive than these buffed armors, just do a chain mail with some stell plates and it is good to go, some parts you can cover with cloth or leave them emptly anyway...
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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:26 am

Well... humans in chainmail still move by 3 tiles. Anyway maybe we might have more ghost-like units for that, like the hypnotic specter I had made some time ago.
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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:31 am

here is the unit discussion but it is still "legless"so it is different than other phantom units.
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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:41 am

I know about the hypnotic specter, but I don't think pairing phantoms up with other ghosts would fit.

Were ghosts usually have auras, on hit effects, dodges, and/or spells, phantoms themselves only are possessed suites of armour focused mainly on physical combat, some could have abilities like the overseer and juggernaut do, but others focus mainly on their combat pro's.

Hypnotic specter is more of a saboteur then a combat specicalist. Somewhat like an advanced shade that can target multiple buildings at the same time without sacrificing itself.

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:53 am

But for now I'm going to set that aside until I stumble across something, right now the juggernaut and overseer are my main 2 concerns at present. I have something new for the overseer but I'd first like to here some thoughts on it:

I was considering an ability for the overseer that allows it to curse a "ally" with a curse that causes them to explode on death. On top of the delay vanishing type aura that only effects fallen phantoms (I'm removing the other aura), this might be useful when dealing with difficult foes and makes the enemy a bit more weary. It would have a cool of course.

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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:21 am

At the moment I haven't discussed yet the changes needed for phantoms on the discord grouèp. I know that there are a few things to change but in general I don't want to make them much ability-intensive

Btw, about the overseer I thought at first that it was a reskin for the crusher. What kind of unit is that? Is it some sort of leader? I don't think undeads should share the same type of leader structure that other races like humans have.

Generally other races have leaders that provide a morale bonus to others while undeads shouldn't rely on that.

Even the sub system should be considered differently for undeads. While a human player might definitely want to rely on sub units (e.g. imperials or warfell) a undead player would still use skeletons as the spine of its army since their main mechanic is to obtain bigger number by raising new units. In that kind of strategy phantoms can mostly act as a selection of stronger units that you can't obtain through reanimation more than a replacement of skeletons.
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makazuwr32
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:56 am

Actually overseer can be used as replacement of crusher. Being most tanking and most damaging phantom unit (as well as most costly).

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:53 am

I was actually changing it over to a more... Support, style role. Hence the ability to curse allies into mobile bombs, also they could help keep fallen phantoms around longer plus maybe make them into a mobile spirit tower.

If anything we could make it so that they could reanimate fallen phantoms and maybe normal corpses but with a delay basically it would coincide with they delay vanishing aura plus grant fallen phantoms within range to reanimate on players side after about 1-2 turns, if an enemy overseer is within the same area the second ability is cancelled out until one of the 2 is dealt with.

Or just give it a short ranged reanimate spell making it somewhat like the hospitalars as a support. But mainly the ability to curse allies so that they explode on death because that could be pretty useful.

But generally it's a support unit with fair stats to give it survivability. Leadership isn't the role anymore. A good example of what it would act somewhat like is that of the cemetery reaper but with different abilities.

Being that phantoms don't seem to be able to get upgrades to stats, and that they can possess their weapons too, would it make sense of the crossbowmen had the ability to shoot a possessed arrow with a 100% chance of hitting and slowing a target, with a cool of 2-3 maybe but with 8 range? It would make sense.

If anything, some abilities would make the phantoms more useful and wouldn't make skeletons any less useful. That way they have some worth in getting this sub race besides mobile shields.I

Hammer guard will be replacement of crusher.

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:21 am

Basically what I got from are little debate on the knight about the phantoms structure is that they're primary role is defending and tanking hits. Not so much offensive, hence why overseer, with an update to stats of course, would act as a support unit that can tank hits and defend itself as well. It would help keep things like flesh golems around longer while the undead are on the move and help necromancers build of their vanishing as well. Meanwhile the overseer itself can curse allies so that they can dwindle more enemies health down faster, being that skeletons are cheap and have crap stats the ability to explode on death would make dealing with tougher opponents much easier. Structure remains the same but undead gain a unit that acts somewhat like the Templars and hospitalars act for humans as combat support types that have good combat stats.

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:16 am

Here are the suggestions for aura types:

1. Delay vanishing, corpse guardian*, awakening*-rng:3

2. Delay vanishing, corpse guardian*

*:corpse guardian: delay vanishing on corpses and fallen phantoms.

*:Awakening: fallen phantoms reanimate after 1-2 turns.

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:22 am

Savra wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:34 pm
Phantom Overseer:
Image
Cost:8
Hp:65
Atk:20
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:4
P.arm:4
Res:100%
Abilities:
Phantoms curse: rng:4, cool:3, aoe:1, effects allies only, causes effected units to explode on death.*
Auras:
Corpse guardian aura: delay vanishing for corpses and fallen phantoms. Rng:3
Delay vanishing aura: Same as spirit tower. Rng:3
Awakening: fallen phantoms within range auto reanimate after 1-2 turns. (We can forget the cancel part being that who ever gets their first or whoever's turn comes first can easily solve who gets the phantoms.)

Bonuses:
150% battering rams
100% melee, buildings
200% fortifications
50% siege machines

*: Dmg:8, aoe:2
Now it's a support type, and it lives up to the name "overseer," since it watches over or "oversees" the fallen phantoms and other things.

It also stays as a protector type unit as well that works well with necromancers and lichs being that it's up where the action is granting the undead a chance at bringing back any fallen phantoms nearby them and dead units as well since the overseer prevents them from vanishing. They compensate eachother basically. Also, in the event that you don't have a lich, necromancer, or spectral rider nearby to bring back fallen phantoms, the overseer can slowly bring them back itself, somewhat like a healing aura for other races being a slower form of healing then the base healing.

It would be nice if we could make it so that the phantoms can take arrows and other projectiles for their comrades, basically forcing archers to target them instead of the other units. This too would work great for undead being that you could guard your casters with shielders or juggernauts who are both good guards in themselves. Just a thought.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Ragnar » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:02 pm

Savra wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:22 am
Savra wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:34 pm
Phantom Overseer:
Image
Cost:8
Hp:65
Atk:20
Rng:1
Sight:4
Spd:3
Arm:4
P.arm:4
Res:100%
Abilities:
Phantoms curse: rng:4, cool:3, aoe:1, effects allies only, causes effected units to explode on death.*
Auras:
Corpse guardian aura: delay vanishing for corpses and fallen phantoms. Rng:3
Delay vanishing aura: Same as spirit tower. Rng:3
Awakening: fallen phantoms within range auto reanimate after 1-2 turns. (We can forget the cancel part being that who ever gets their first or whoever's turn comes first can easily solve who gets the phantoms.)

Bonuses:
150% battering rams
100% melee, buildings
200% fortifications
50% siege machines

*: Dmg:8, aoe:2
Now it's a support type, and it lives up to the name "overseer," since it watches over or "oversees" the fallen phantoms and other things.

It also stays as a protector type unit as well that works well with necromancers and lichs being that it's up where the action is granting the undead a chance at bringing back any fallen phantoms nearby them and dead units as well since the overseer prevents them from vanishing. They compensate eachother basically. Also, in the event that you don't have a lich, necromancer, or spectral rider nearby to bring back fallen phantoms, the overseer can slowly bring them back itself, somewhat like a healing aura for other races being a slower form of healing then the base healing.

It would be nice if we could make it so that the phantoms can take arrows and other projectiles for their comrades, basically forcing archers to target them instead of the other units. This too would work great for undead being that you could guard your casters with shielders or juggernauts who are both good guards in themselves. Just a thought.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by General Brave » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:38 pm

Can't say much since it seems you are pretty convinced that the undead needs this.
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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:52 pm

Just think of it as the imperial paladin that didn't make it in. But for undead, and it's a phantom. I'm pretty sure undead players would use this quiet a bit.

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:56 am

Because it seems you want a tanky crushed over the hammer, also I updated the overseer, plus I made a new one based on the levitating phantom idea, the phantom Executioner.
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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:54 pm

Who told you we won't have an imperial paladin?

Anyway I don't like a aura unit for phantoms... Reasons are the usual.

We can attain similar effects with either techs or casters (which undeads should have a lot more)
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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:59 am

I have no idea what's getting in and what's not, I didn't see the imperial paladin get in with the rest of the imperials so I thought it didn't make it, also their was quite a bit of people who were against it and it seemed like the paladin was given only to storm saints group. Glad to here that it's getting in though.

So if auras are something it shouldn't use then just give it some more spells? Like 2-3 more similar in fashion to warmage?

Besides that I seem to like the idea that the crusher has a shield now so we can just make the crusher, overseer, shielder, and pikemen have a shield bash ability that causes stun but suffers from a cool similar to orcs weapon poisoning maybe so probably 2-3 turns cool. Damage could be 12 (effected by armour).

Executioner I had planned to give it a passive ability were it has a 20% chance of inflicting bleeding, unless we want to get interesting and go for the 5% chance of insta-killing an enemy (might be lowered to 4%) but I take it that's unlikely.

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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:49 am

If the overseer is to be a spell caster what should spells be?

Lifelink
Implosion curse: rng:3, effects allies only, causes ally to explode on death dealing 8 dmg, aoe:2, lasts 3 turns.
Reanimate: rng:3
Lightning bolt: rng:4

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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:21 am

When I told you spellcasters I didn't mean phantom spellcasters

all phantoms will be fighters, I don't plan to give them spells and activated abilities but they will rely on their stats and the chance of multiple resurrection
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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:45 pm

Hm, ok.

What about the other 2? The executioner and new crusher. Are they good?

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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:41 pm

for now I wouldn't go for the executioner style

Anyway we had a different idea for crusher, for now I suggest you to stop working on phantoms as I am not really considering the overhaul of the sub before we add the resurrection feature.
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Savra
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:19 pm

I was going to update overseer to summon the poltergeist instead of the juggernaut since it would look less odd being that the juggernaut has only one weapon and the overseer has a shield and possibly a spare sword, if executioner is not wanted then I take it a simpler weapon like a mace would do for the floating phantom.

For crusher I thought you guys wanted the redesigned version since that's what you thought the overseer was, but I take it the hammerer is the one you wanted so I'll just drop that one (looked funny anyway).

So as far as juggernaut, overseer, and floater go, hold off till the reanimation thing is ready before we continue with them? Fine with me.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:58 pm

Yes, definitely, @General Brave already put his hands on phantom techs so let's wait a bit and see how that will affect the game.

At the same time I'm working to expand minotaurs so we can open their sub and remove them from base army and also making the new woodshaper (that will also be one of elven main siege).

Soon we'll also make use of your new building designs ;)
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