Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

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godOfKings
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Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

Post by godOfKings » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:40 pm

@Stratego (dev) @COOLguy @makazuwr32

Right now the game is very broken and unrealistic because workers r easy to spam and hard to kill late game. Very few infantries r ever made in late game. Just make 8 workers or 8 laborers and u have 1 catapult every 2 turn.... (The very thought of making catapults in 2 turns makes me feel revolted, repulsive and disgusted...no offence)

My suggestion is an ageing system for workers, basically they retire (leaving effect) after certain turns

Realistically workers r weak and they only work for the money, after they r too old to work they retire and spend rest of their life with family.

In gameplay terms, workers will have leaving effect that lasts 20 turns, laborers will have leaving effect that lasts 16 turns, and the leaving effect cannot b increased by paying money or anything,

its still a long time like half of the entire game, but at least the players won't end up with only workers, sieges and no other people in the entire kingdom,

Its kind of a drastic suggestion so pls give me ur opinions
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For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:58 pm

i am not sure, actually workers are very fragile, they need to be defended. eg. a laborer is one-shot killed by an upgraded archer.

i never face cases when catapults are swarming at me because of many workers on enemy side.

but i will wait other opinions

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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by godOfKings » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:10 pm

I said late game, wen u have castles on front line, u make other units on front line TCS, but on original base, only worker, wagon and catapult. Everybody (including me) makes the same thing on late game Cuz its the most effective, there is no denying it,

And if a worker survives 20 turns, that is well into late game and there is already enough new comers to not feel much wen it dies
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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getfreur
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by getfreur » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:11 pm

Why not make them become villagers in place of vanish? That can only make houses and farms.
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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:53 am

That is useless, unnecessary coding, takes up space for which I would rather kill it
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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makazuwr32
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:44 am

Actually i agree that in the late game we need more realistic gameplay. Not catapult spam.

Alas i don't agree with worker leaving. Instead i will prefer to see catapults removed from build list of workers.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:10 am

Wat do u suggest workers will make then, battering rams, ballista, wagons, siege mantlets/towers, other towers and ships? (These things still fall in worker rebalancing category so they can b discussed)

my only upset is making 8 turn worth unit with op damage and high range in just 2 turns, if that can b balanced then I will accept any suggestion,

In no upgrades game, may b allow ballista and battering rams to b created by workers (removing them from upgrades and adding them as basic)



ANOTHER FIX, making laborers mend only 1 HP for heavy catapults while workers construct 2 HP, as well as making heavy catapults take 18 turns to finish constructing (which is kind of tough because of 30 HP)
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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getfreur
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by getfreur » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:01 pm

So change it from building a specific unit to a temporary building, like a siege camp from stronghold.

The worker make a siege camp that take like 4 turns to build and can transform in a siege unit like catapults, towers or ram, you can put 2 workers inside to cut by half the time, but the workers disappear with the siege camp when the siege unit is complete.
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COOLguy
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by COOLguy » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:48 pm

No then your problem is because you are at a stalemate. Both sides are too strong. The only way to break the stalemate is to increase production and the only producers that are not tied to towns are workers.

Population limit would eventually end your spam problem. :) Its a fascinating economic thought experiment.
Thanks!
Josh

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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by godOfKings » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:37 am

actually trebuchet spams with a few cannons r the only things that breaks stalemate, once u have 6 trebuchets, u destroy a castle in a turn, destroy any wagon hidden inside with fire archers and thats it, ur opp can nvr recover the damage. and u continue advancing till eventually he breaks. i onced destroyed such a player after crossin 200 pop cap (i ended up producing more trebs than him :D )

and with tc most players would still make workers on late game ( as there is usually enough factory buildings to make infantry/ cavalry etc.) and my suggestion of 20 turn for workers, 16 turn for laborers is pretty much enough to make them useful b4 they , for example get killed by enemies, it will help keep a near constant amount of workforce in ur army to continue making sieges (6 workers/8 laborers times the number of tcs making workers), the point is it will no longer b psbl to make highly expensive siege units in just 2 turns or EVEN 1 turn ( a free tile adjacent to two tc allows 16 workers to construct in that tile in a single turn at maximum, it will depend on luck about position of tc )

also this will give those players who try to use different units other than workers at early game, the time they need to catch up with their opponent if their strategy fails, while currently they irreversibly always stay behind their opponent in terms of production power.

to b honest, i came up with this suggestion bcuz the exact same thing happened to me, in a 20x20 map i used early rush tactics, opponent used worker spam and quickly built towers and castles, still i thought i had a chance but he totally wiped out my huge army (mostly empty wagons and transport ships and a heavy war elephant that i used to judge his total firepower) with nothing but catapults, i m pretty sure he is making 1.5 (that is more than one) heavy catapults a turn with nothing but laborers and a few workers. ( the game is still continueing though and i m kind of killing his catapults too :lol: , so it is still early to decide if he can actually beat me, but srsly every turn he is just getting more and more heavy catapults, even faster than i can produce fire archers, forget knights, its like there is no other way to counter this op spam except to make my own catapult spams, which is part of the reason i m still alive :lol: ), also i think inaccuracy of heavy catapults should not decrease but stay same as catapults at 15% times target speed
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by COOLguy » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:10 am

Yes that is the hope of most defensive style players :)

There is not much u can do vs catapult and siege army. If you really don't like siege, I guess you can invest in ornithopters :)
Thanks!
Josh

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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by godOfKings » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:41 am

Its a waste, one ornithopter cannot kill a heavy catapult and he is killed by fortress and castle next turn... Also heavy catapult hidden in fortress is, well, u know, if u dont have treb by then its btr to withdraw instead.


However that gives me an idea, how about make omnithopters build able by workers for 11 turns (since they have 11 HP) they have to move to front lines defended by fortresses so die ezly, so not so op, but can still ezly annihilate catapults if we can spam them at faster rate than catapults (mainly by making them with workers and laborers)
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:47 pm

i suggest a bit more bonus for ornithopter and trebuchet to kill a heavy catapult and that is enough i think.

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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing

Post by godOfKings » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:31 pm

It is not enough in a world where u make one omnithopter in 5 TURNS but 2 heavy catapults in JUST 2 turns, u can literally have 8 heavy catapults in 8 turns. Currently my score is higher than my opponent only because I m killing on avrg 2 heavy catapults every turn, still he has like 5 or 6 heavy catapults left where I have only 2 ( that too catapult not heavy)

I still suggest making it psbl to spam omnuthopters as fast as catapults with workers in order to stand a chance, else investing in workers instead of omnithopters in a tc will still b more effective in the long run,
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:36 pm

ok, i play a guy having this heavycatapult thing

what about these:
- trebuchet kills h.catapult by 1 shot
- ornithopter kills h.catapult by 1 shot
- also increasing the castle and fortress damage on h. catapult (i see it is very few now)

anything else?

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Re: Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

Post by godOfKings » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:30 pm

Lol I wonder if its the Russian tournament player, won't say his name ;)

Here is my suggestion, make omnithopter buildable by worker for 11 turns,

And no I don't support any unit except mace/flail/elephant/ may b cannons since they take long to make, killing a heavy cat with one hit


burning effect already deals 8 dmg to siege engine category which is A LOT so that is pretty much enough...

Keep h.cat power inaccuracy same as cat so it misses wagons and horses more often,

also in my opinion, give catapults 20 DMG, heavy catapults 30 DMG, and increase bonus against buildings, triremes etc. So they still deal same damage against units they have bonus against, but lower DMG against units it doesn't, can have a little high aoe dmg instead, with 7 to 8 range it already got pretty good survivality


However none of these r solutions to the fact that if one player can amass more workers than other in the short run, his production will always b higher in the long run)
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

Stratego (dev)
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Re: Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:56 am

make omnithopter buildable by worker for 11 turns,
i try to avoid brining in new buildable units, and that is special enough not to be easy to build
mace/flail/elephant/ may b cannons since they take long to make
it hink it is ok to have a costy unit against a costy other unit (by costy i mean it is hard to upgrade the catapult to its full effectiveness)
Keep h.cat power inaccuracy same as cat so it misses wagons and horses more often,
it was not much difference
it was 15% on catapult
and 10% on h. catapult - now i increased to 13% but that is not much difference


also i increased trebuchet bonus against catapults to 200%


------------------------
new idea: what about a setting how much HP a turn can be added during construction: maxConstrPercentPerTurn

this way we can set on any buildable thing how much +% it can get constructed a turn.

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makazuwr32
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Re: Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:45 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:56 am
new idea: what about a setting how much HP a turn can be added during construction: maxConstrPercentPerTurn

this way we can set on any buildable thing how much +% it can get constructed a turn.
So it will restrict max amount of worker actions for construction/turn on unit?
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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godOfKings
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Re: Worker Rebalancing (or heavy catapult)

Post by godOfKings » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:46 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:56 am
mace/flail/elephant/ may b cannons since they take long to make
i think it is ok to have a costy unit against a costy other unit (by costy i mean it is hard to upgrade the catapult to its full effectiveness)

also i increased trebuchet bonus against catapults to 200%
wat i meant is that in my opinion only the ABOVE units
mace/flail/elephant/ may b cannons since they take long to make
should b able to one-shot cat and h.cats, trebuchets in my opinion r too op already with 10 range plus too cheap compared to heavy cats. and as anti-building trebs r already the second most spammed units, so no, trebuchets shouldnt one-shot cats or h.cats, cannons on the other hand need the extra gun powder tech research so they can one shot cats and trebs,

for trebs the previous bonus of 50% is good enough, or can increase bonus against h.cats to 100% but no one-shot kill...

technically it takes about same time to both unlock h.cat and cannon but treb can b unlocked a lot sooner so it is cheaper
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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