Dwarf Warrior

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samuelch
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Dwarf Warrior

Post by samuelch » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:19 am

A basic 2 turns cost warrior. Low armour, medium power, Medium pierce armour.
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General Brave
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by General Brave » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:12 pm

What are the stats, is this like going to be The Swordsman?
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samuelch
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by samuelch » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:14 pm

Yes.
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General Brave
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by General Brave » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:15 pm

But his style is like aoww, this needs to be more sharper, more define.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by General Brave » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:16 pm

The Shield does looks gread.
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samuelch
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by samuelch » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:27 pm

Some changes
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by General Brave » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:37 pm

Ok.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:37 pm

For this I suggest these stats:
Cost: 2
Hp: 20
Attack: 10
Range: 1
Armor: 1/1
Speed: 3
Description: the standard warriors of the Dwarven forces, they are very sturdy and have powerful attacks, steel axes and an iron will.
* Has 300% attack bonus vs. buildings. (40 damage)
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makazuwr32
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:58 am

I think he must have standart bonuses to buildings.
100% to factories and towers, 200% to walls, 700% to mega.
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Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:24 pm

Right, that sounds better. I had just forgotten what the standard values for these were. :lol:
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:34 pm

Also i think they can have a bit higher p.armor, raise by 1 it.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:04 pm

Considering they are but a simple cost 2 foot unit, 1 p. armor is more than enough actually since these units are supposed to be vulnerable vs. archers. If you really think it needs more resilience though we can simply raise its hp a few points, OR reduce it slightly and increase armor to 2/2. I think it's fine as it is though.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:14 pm

Dwarves must be tough. and remember that orcs have 24 hp and 12 damage on their basic warrior unit.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:54 pm

orc are supposed to be the toughest melee fighters so I think these stats make perfect sense. A human has 18 hp and 8 atk, and a single orc warrior can take on 2 if lucky. So it would make sense that dwarves would be somewhere in between these two in power.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:47 am

Looking at stats in game, I'd like to propose a change

26 hp (higher than basic orc warrior)
8 power (human level)
1/1 armor

Emphasis on durability, with higher hp than any other 2 cost warrior, but only average power.
Last edited by Sunrise Samurai on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:11 am

That what i want to see.
Also i think dwarves need 3-4 levels of weapon and armor upgrades but not unit upgrades.
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Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:09 pm

Just 3 levels. Nobody else has 4, even looking at humans combining unit and equipment upgrades.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:17 pm

Keep in mind I'm looking at 5/5 armor for most basic dwarf infantry at fully upgraded. 2 cost units with that kind of armor isn't to be ignored.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:22 pm

personally i think that each unit upgrade must count as double blacksmith upgrade for upgradable unit.
For example orc warrior - after upgrade gets +3 damage, +3 health, +1/+1 armor while blacksmith upgrade of humans and elves will give +1 damage or +1(/+1) armor(s).
so tecnically humans, orcs and undeads have 4 blacksmith-like upgrades for basic units (mostly, orcs have upgrades for their giants as well).
also blacksmith upgrades take to research longer than orc and undead ones.
And because i suggest for most of units 3 blacksmith upgrades and for special ones additional "reach"-like upgrades. (reach affects only 2 units for humans and special upgrades will affect also low amount of units while giving them great bonus to one of their stats)
And this can be counted as tier 4 upgrade for several units.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:41 pm

Hmm. Maybe 3 basic blacksmith techs, plus some others. For example:

Dwarven hardiness (1,2,3)
Cost 4/5/6
Gives +4 hp to all dwarven units per level.

Fits right in for dwarves, turning the average soldier into a durable tank.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:45 pm

I don't like this idea.
I think that special upgrades will fit more for them.
For example for Dwarf warrior and maybe Dwarven Defender research that will give them +1 power range or +10 hp for 5 turns.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:05 pm

Well I do want reach to carry over from humans to settle dwarf spear units to 2 range.

Maybe research to change stance (transform)
Options are defensive stance (-1 speed for +2/2 armor) and agressive stance (+1 action, +2 power for -2/2 armor) as well as entrenched (0 speed, +1 action, +3 power, +2/2 armor)

Power range is a great idea. Something akin to strengthen on sentinels​ might work too.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:15 pm

i will think more when i will get working on my phone dev version.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:34 pm

The stats you suggested will make it a bit too tanky for a start game unit from my point of view, sunrise. If it has 28 hp, 2 armor and 8 attack it can still solo kill an orc warrior (assuming neither of them have any upgrades) which probably shouldn't be possible as the orcs are supposed to be the best melee units in the game. However, it would make sense that the dwarves could have some sort of special upgrade that increases all dwarves' hp. I suggest something like "dwarven endurance": cost 6, ALL dwarven units controlled by the player get +8hp. That would make sense and still be balanced as by the time that technology is researched, dwarf warriors will have about 30hp while still giving a chance for the other melee warriors to catch up with some other upgrade. Though if you really think it needs to be more tanky in first level and with less attack, maybe increase hp to 22 and decrease attack to 9 and leave the rest as it is. They can be made tankier than that by upgrades plus the max hp one so there's no need to make it higher than that or they could be unbalanced. Also yes, I think dwarves should have 3 levels of upgrade for each stat. With the same cost and increases for each race. (melee attack, ranged attack, infantry armor, riflemen armor and riders' armor upgrades).
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:02 pm

Orcs should be the strongest, in terms of sheer power. Dwarves should actually hold the title of most durable. One on one between the two like that is a close match, if slightly tilted to the dwarf based on durability. I actually say it should have higher hp than the orc version. Id consider decreasing the attack to 7 if you prefer.

If counting that orc upgrades give power, armor, and hp, you also have to realize they gain more than the blacksmith techs give other races, so I'd still suggest future hp upgrades for dwarves. Maybe not a 1,2,3 series but some hp upgrade.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:16 pm

Then make it as a bonus for dwarves: because of their superior blacksmithing skills, their blacksmith upgrades benefit them with TWICE as much power as usual a.k.a. they get 2 points of attack / armor per upgrade. The upgrades take no extra turns to complete, it's the same speed as other races. (To balance them with the orcs' upgrades) A standard Dwarven warrior will have a whooping 7/7 armor with all armor upgrades acquired. Certainly very tanky for a cost 2 unit. And still balanced since the best attacking units will have somewhere around 30 - 50 attack by the time the dwarves can acquire all the armor upgrades. Add that to the hp tech I suggested and well... you have one heck of a tanky cost 2 unit. Also the hp tech can be a new tech tree exclusive to dwarves. 3 levels, cost 4/5/6, each level adds 5 hp to all dwarven units.

Also, if you really insist on maiking the cost 2 dwarven unit so tanky, how about these changes.

hp 25 (40 with all hp teches.)
attack 8 (14 with all melee attack upgrades.)
armor 1/1 (7/7 with all armor upgrades.)

There you go. Balanced and tanky as heck. It can't really get much better than that without getting broken in my opinion.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:28 am

Personally i'm against +2 armors and damage per upgrade and hp upgrade to them because:
1. Armors affect all living dwarven units and for exampe dwarven defender with 14/12 armors and 80 hp is waaay too tanky for elves.
And dwarf crossbowman with 18 hp, 15 damage and 8/10 armor is even worse for elves. For 2 turns! nd can't be killed by sentinel or ent warrior. Needs 2 of them.
2. Dwarves already will have plenty amount of upgrades. Don't need even more (hp ones).
3. Best attacking units cost 6+ turns while dwarf warrior cost 2. For example human's best attack units are: imperial knight (no splash, 8 turns, 27 damage max), drake knight (flying, 22 damage, 8 turns, castle only (on some maps you can't built castle)), catapult (33 damage, extremly vurable to damage). And best elven units right now are archers (with best possible attack capped at 11 damage when under eagle eye effect and aura from ent warrior), sentinel (22 damage when under strengthen effect), ent warrior (18 damage), elf dragon (10-11x2, not 22! Becauce damage lowered for each attack from armor). We need to balance dwarves from the beginning around all races, not only around orcs (which are the most disbalanced race right now).
4. About hp upgrades: i'm against them if they affect all dwarven units also because some units with both their hp (increased by upgrade especially) and their armors (even if normal +1/+1) will become waay too tanky for humans or elves. Orcs maybe could handle them but orcs are the most disbalanced race right now. 1 or 2 special upgrades exclusive for 1 unit of dwarves (for example separate hp upgrade for this warrior only, 1 tier only) are fine.

As for warrior maybe lower his defence to 1/1 and hp to 26 from sunrise's suggested stats, that way he will become more reasonable. For late game unit with 26 hp, 11 damage and 4/4 armor i think is fine for 2 turns. (Somewhere elf swordman with 14 hp shed some tears...)
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:57 am

Edited stats.

Double armor upgrades I must say absolutely not. +6/6 armor to everything is just too much.

Elf swordsman....heh. so puny. Even I don't use it much.
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by Skelegonsans » Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:26 pm

Say that to zurgo taht can go over 15 armor and to uruk hai that can have 10 armor at last upgrade. compared to that, 7 armor is nothing and cavalry units will still take these guys down easily due to bonus vs. infantry. But maybe 7 pierce armor is a bit too much for archers to go through. maybe make it a +2/+1 armor upgrade instead and only make it upgradeable two times instead of three making for a 5/3 armor total at max armor level, how about that.
(god how is a basic cost 2 unit so difficult to balance. :lol: )
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Re: Dwarf Warrior

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:17 pm

No.
About armors:
1. Say this to undeads which best unit (death knight) has 6/6 armors.
2. Both units you mentioned cost a lot. Especially to level up Zurgo.
3. Right now he will get at max (after upgrades) 4/4 armor which still great for 2 turn unit.
4. Yes cavalry can bring him down quickly. But dwarves have their own anti-cav units and they are good as well.
5. These ones must work as meat walls to cover more valuable crossbowmen and gunners.

And about upgrade:
+2/+1 is still too much because some dwarven units will get too much armor still. For example dwarven defender with already 8/6 armor will get 12/8 and with strengthen buff (dwarven priest has it) 15/11. And dwarven cleric has better heal spell (20 hp to heal per cast).
I'm not talking about for example mithril golem with hp around 100, 9/9 (and +8/+4 armors from upgrades because they have their own upgrades as well, counts as giant, so cavalry is not so useful against it) and 40+ damage with 1 power range and researchable regeneration ability. Can't be burned and affected by any status spells apart from slow/curse.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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