some rebalancing for the orc dragon - ARCHIVED

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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:07 am

SS,I agree you,but troll shamans are too expensive too cost 1 dragon per shaman.
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makazuwr32
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:57 am

Actually i think that just cooldown on spell and research for it would be enough.
6 turns for research in shaman hut and 5-6 turns cooldown for spell itself.
We can nefr stats later if this wouldn't be enough.

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Ayush Tiwari
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:57 am

makazuwr32 wrote:Actually i think that just cooldown on spell and research for it would be enough.
6 turns for research in shaman hut and 5-6 turns cooldown for spell itself.
We can nefr stats later if this wouldn't be enough.
I agree.
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Midonik
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Midonik » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:56 pm

I think that one spell per shaman will require some coding? Any other unit have such effect. Then,6 cooldown sounds ok. But mayby make it longer,like 10. (Or we cloud make 1000 turns cooldown,it will work like one dragon per shaman :lol: )
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General Brave
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:10 pm

I would go with whatever that pleases you guys, but I may still try go for the dragon.
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Alexander82
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:08 pm

my suggestions inline
Sunrise Samurai wrote:Final stats suggestion:
Reduce hp to 60 (still huge, but not quite as unkillable with regeneration and flying factored in)
I think 80 is ok. The undead dragon is already 80 and it doesn't give all those problems. The real problem is the early summon and the fact that you can swarm them). Anyway I think archers should have a bonus against dragons
Trample reduced to 1
If we limit their numbers it might not be required. Remember it has no breath weapon compared to human and undead dragon
Research cost 5
I 'd raise it to 6 or 8 and still add a cooldown (even with the unit limit you might still summon another anytime your dragon dies while a cooldown would avoid a 1_dragon_per_turn combo)
Sacrifice cost 1
Yep
One dragon per shaman. Totally agree

For 7 total cost, you get a VERY useful healer and a powerful flying unit with trample, high damage, and still very high hp. Research simply delays the ability to use it for 5 turns, preventing a rush from happening so easily. Probably a lot more balanced, though 7 cost still seems quite a bargain.
Dragon should be rare and strong creatures and swarming dragons is against that so a dragon for summoner might be a great way to avoid an army made from them alone.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:36 pm

I think that for beginning would be enough cooldown of 6 with tech cost of 6-7 turns. If it would be still too hard, than just increase cooldown to 1000 or similar. just as midonik suggested.
Also can you sacrifice one troll shaman by second troll shaman?

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by DoomCarrot » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:14 am

Agree with alexander 100%

Also, we might need to do some rebalancing of the undead dragon too, considering that you can also spam them with grave diggers, and they are equally amazing
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:17 am

Well the undead dragons take a bit more longer to do. And and by the time you able to do that I'm pretty sure you going to win anyways.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:38 am

I agree with everything,because I think we can make more than one troll shamans in the time we research the tech.
Sadly,I can say that the strongest unit of the game is no more the strongest.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by DoomCarrot » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:49 am

General Brave wrote:Well the undead dragons take a bit more longer to do. And and by the time you able to do that I'm pretty sure you going to win anyways.

Not really. For instance, in our current game, we are both spamming dragons pretty hard. However, it only seems balanced because they are both wildly stupidly OP.

If orc dragon gets rebalanced, I would bone dragon spam you to oblivion.

Which is why it badly needs a rebalnce too if the orc dragon gets fixed.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:54 am

So both dragons needs rebalance, is that all.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Constantin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:34 pm

DoomCarrot wrote:Also, we might need to do some rebalancing of the undead dragon too, considering that you can also spam them with grave diggers, and they are equally amazing
But why undead dragons need rebalancing? They have only 4 movement, also they are vulnerable to fire. They dont have a 2 power range. To build them you need lich (5 turns) and several builders for bone towers or u need build grave diggers. Also Alexander offers add bonus against dragons to archers.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:20 pm

Maybe bonuses to archers against dragons would be enough to "rebalance" undead dragons.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:33 pm

Undead dragons *seem* alright for now. Humans can go castle/fortress happy, plus catapults. Elves don't worry much about them either, due to fire archers. Orcs have a number of powerful giant units that deal full damage to flying. Undead can easily match it with itself. Mind you, this may be my observation from playing elves mostly, who I'm sure can handle skeleton dragons from experience. Mostly by burning them to a crisp.

Archers should have a bonus against dragons though, I definitely think this is necessary.

I noticed headhunters have a bonus against all dragons, interestingly enough.
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makazuwr32
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:55 pm

Also you can with elves and humans just slow 'em to 1 point/turn...

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by DoomCarrot » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:29 pm

True, I guess the 4 move and no trample does make them pretty inferior to green dragons.

Also, we have like 10 peoppe in support of this rebalance now lol, I think this is probably one of the most agreed upon rebapances in AoS/AoF to date :lol:

Even the mendship horror rebalance didn't have that much support :)
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:49 pm

This whole mess stems from the initial concept for green dragons. They were supposed to be OP, but uncontrollable and with the same problems as the ai. Since uncontrollable was never properly implemented, we got left with OP, but mildly annoying to move.

Since it's still a bit annoying, I don't think anyone tried spamming it until General Brave. Now that he did so though, we all see how absurdly OP it really is. Small wonder this rebalance got so much support
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:20 pm

Not the only thing I can spamsss.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:16 pm

don't worry general... we'll find those other things and fix them ;)
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:46 pm

btw... in the meanwhile i've heavily edited the image
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:59 pm

Can we have that as a different dragon? It looks pretty awesome but I don't want to replace the old one.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:05 am

I've made it specifically to replace the orc dragon and it is my intention to replace the old image because i find it too flat and with many ugly details.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:09 am

Well can you remodel the other dragon?
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:13 am

No... This one resulted from the remodeling of the old image...

What's your problem with that image?
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Constantin » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:13 am

Sunrise Samurai wrote:Since it's still a bit annoying, I don't think anyone tried spamming it until General Brave. Now that he did so though, we all see how absurdly OP it really is. Small wonder this rebalance got so much support
In fact, I came across players who used green dragon spam in the past year, when after one of the updates it was changed and lost the ability to disappear. Until that moment, he had vanishing 6. But even then he was not as dangerous as now, when he received the power range 2. I remember when in one of the topics Alexander and Sunrise Samurai compared the green dragon and orc king. You considered the dragon weaker than the orc king. Although you did not really see the benefits of green dragon against orc king. Actually, for Green dragon, you need 3 units with a cost of 2 turns. (Total time cost 6). But unlike example from the same orc king you distribute production to three buildings, and in time you get a green dragon in 2 turns. So you can build 3 green dragons for 6 turns (total cost 18) and only 1 orc king for this time, although the total cost will be the same. To build 3 orcs king you will need to wait for 18 turns (total cost 18 turns). As for the building, you use troll shaman as building to create a green dragon. Unlike the building where orc king is build, troll shaman "building" can move to a distance of 4 move, heal green dragon and give aura group artack + 1. Imagine you could distribute the production of orc king to three buildings, and also move one of the buildings to 4, completely heal orc king and give aura group attack +1. This would undoubtedly lead to orc king spam. Therefore, the problem is not green dragon stats, but the ability to make green dragon spam. Alexander has already explained that there is no need to change green dragon stats. Also troll shaman used as a "building" must have a limited amount for creating, depending on the number of your tcs. As for its cost, I think it should be 6-7 turns. That is, you must produce one green dragon once in 6-7 turns. Therefore trolls shamans should have 6-7 coldowns and this is with their limited amount. Or already on the posts described above, one troll shaman should build only 1 green dragon.

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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:24 am

Nothing's wrong with the image, Maybe. But I meant to say that other dragons race, like the human dragon and elf, Undead. If the orc Dragon is remodeled, shouldn't the other dragons be too. Also can we keep the old dragons in the map editor, so we could at least have more variety to use.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:29 am

I remodeled the elf dragon already.

The skeletal dragon seems fine and later on I will make a new human dragon too

The orc dragon was the worst in terms of image and that's why I wanted to edit it...
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by General Brave » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:36 am

Oh, okay. Hey Alexander, can we have a Wyverns? Like for random Maps. Instead of putting down dragon Corpses.
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Re: some rebalancing for the orc dragon

Post by Ayush Tiwari » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:36 am

Dragon looks nice,but just look its face.
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