Samurai vs hatamoto - IMPLEMENTED

[Sunrise Samurai]

This probably should be in bugs, but I think it might be the subject of some balance discussion.

Samurai are effected by​ blacksmith techs
Hatamoto isn't.

They really need to be on the same page, since samurai is actually more powerful than hatamoto if all blacksmith techs are researched. This means upgrading them actually weakens them.

The balance question is this: should we remove the upgrades from samurai, or give them to hatamoto?

My vote is to give the upgrades, though I'm one of the people who thinks blacksmith techs should impact everything.

[DoomCarrot]

Lol, yes, I noticed this too. On the wiki page for them, I said something along the lines of "The Hatamoto's armour and weapons are so well crafted that it is beyond a blacksmith's ability to improve them"

[Sunrise Samurai]

Actually, maybe we should start making blacksmith techs for individual nation's. For example, carbon steel levels 1 and 2 for Japanese melee. Interlocking shields as Roman​ armor upgrades, etc.

[Dan301002]

I heard somewhere that hatamoto was already good enough, so they don't need upgrades like that. (Honestly they will be scary with upgrades)

[LordOfAles]

Nope, actually they wouldnt. That would just encourage players researching sword mastery faster than archery!

[Sunrise Samurai]

True that. It might encourage working on melee instead of ranged. Ive been told adding national techs just makes too many​ techs, so I'd say to give them the blacksmith techs.

[Dan301002]

Well, maybe since the cost increased they didn't get used as much now. When hatamoto first release i am staying with him because of the values (strong double attacks? why not).

[DoomCarrot]

hatamoto is still pretty good, with or without upgrades.

Infantry with 4 move? That essentially means you will ALWAYS get first strike against other melee units, which is pretty huge. Also, they do a better job at keeping up with centurions, so they are a nice bonding strategy.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Be grateful it doesn't benefit from drummer......5 move infantry. Scary

[COOLguy]

I think the solution might be to have the samurai with no upgrades.

We cannot have where it has upgrades and the same unit does not

[Sunrise Samurai]

I think the solution might be to have the samurai with no upgrades.

We cannot have where it has upgrades and the same unit does not

One or the other. I'd even​ understand if hatamoto got upgrades​ and samurai didn't lol but it's not good for the lesser form to be stronger

[godOfKings]

How about hatamoto has 10 atk and 0/0 or 1/1 armour and it can have blacksmith upgrades, after all the main upgrade for samurai is the +1 speed

[Dan301002]

Several choices :
- Let the hatamoto got only the 1st infantry tech
(Samurai still has both tech).
- Let the Samurai got only the 1st tech (Hatamoto
had no tech).

[DoomCarrot]

But see that is so confusing imo, especially to new players. Having only one tech benefit them is just as bizarre as the current situation.

[Dan301002]

Well, then what will be the solution?
Edit : it is both armor & power for both choices, besides Hatamoto is just fine with one tech level / none (samurai on other hand might need two level, but maybe it can get one tech level only?).

[godOfKings]

How about this, samurai has 8 attack while hatamoto has 9 attack, and they both get black smith upgrades

[Sunrise Samurai]

I think I like that idea

[godOfKings]

Yes for a 3 turn unit, 16 damage is more than enough for samurai and they have bonus against infantry too

[LordOfAles]

I agree! This balance should be in

[DoomCarrot]

I agree hatamoto should just be nerfed and given upgrades.

[Dan301002]

+1

[COOLguy]

Please decide what the property changes should be, so we can put them in the game.

[DoomCarrot]

It seems 9 attack for hatamoto?

[Sunrise Samurai]

Please decide what the property changes should be, so we can put them in the game.

Drop hatamoto to 9 power, but it gets the blacksmith techs in exchange. This seems to be the most balanced way to do it, and rewards development as a game progresses.

[LordOfAles]

Agreed

[godOfKings]

To summarize more clearly
Samurai atk 8
Hatamoto atk9
Hatamoto armour could b 1/1 but everyone else should agree first on this b4 being implemented ( or should it be 1/0 so that the only things increased r atk, hp and most imprtantly speed?)
Full blacksmith upgrades would then give hatamoto
atk 11,
Armour 3/3 or 3/2 (depending on whichever seems more balanced)

[godOfKings]

Are the stats implemented yet? Personally I like the second version of armour more ( with less pierce armour )