Heavy Leguonaire? Up armored Legionaire?

[DreJaDe]

Basically, the premise of this suggestion of mine is an upg to the Romans like it is for the other units.

Apparently, during the Dacian wars. The Romans added more armor to their soldiers to counter them (Some say it's not specifically because of the dacian but that's not the point). So the point is that, they added more armor, upged their helmets and even the shield. Although they did reverted back and became worse after centuries, it's still quite evident that they did up armored during the time.

So with that is the suggestion of an upg to the legionsire.

There are two suggestion for the upg
Heavy legionaire
A
Tech cost 4
HP: 25
Armor: 5
R. Armor: 4-5
Damage: no change

B
tech cost: 5
HP: 28-30
Armor: 5
R. Armor: 3
No change since their changes is due to melee not for range
Damage: no change

Idk about damage but it can adjusted to add smt like +1-2.

[L4cus]

well...first, the fact that there were more armoured legionaries is true, but it was not a permanent change, just a temporal change to addapt to the enemy warfare and weapons, the most reknown case of this is during the dacian wars, romphaia or dacian falx was so efective against roman armours, specially hurting arms made legionaries carry additional armour and the arm protection called "manica", as i said this was temporal, and limited to a single scenario. so i dont think about an upgrade as a good idea.
going to gamplay, an upgrade for legionaries would make their efectiveness last longer, so they would become even better in the middle-late game. their objective was being strong in the early, so adding middle game upgrades doesnt go acording to the reason of the culture (i will ask endru whats the correc way to call it). so even in the gameplay is not a good idea, under my pov

[DreJaDe]

well...first, the fact that there were more armoured legionaries is true, but it was not a permanent change, just a temporal change to addapt to the enemy warfare and weapons, the most reknown case of this is during the dacian wars, romphaia or dacian falx was so efective against roman armours, specially hurting arms made legionaries carry additional armour and the arm protection called "manica", as i said this was temporal, and limited to a single scenario. so i dont think about an upgrade as a good idea.
going to gamplay, an upgrade for legionaries would make their efectiveness last longer, so they would become even better in the middle-late game. their objective was being strong in the early, so adding middle game upgrades doesnt go acording to the reason of the culture (i will ask endru whats the correc way to call it). so even in the gameplay is not a good idea, under my pov

But isn't that point the Romans were renown for?

Romans adapted based on their enemy. They used different type of armor for different cases. Nothing was permanent unless the enemy is. And even then, they might change.

Like for example is the late changes of the roman army going back to the more phalanx type organization. And for other countries. The armor changes from having more and more armor to almost none.

We also can't deny that other troops in this game isn't the same case for this.

also, from what I read. There are some who says that it's not specific to the Dacian because it was also found in other countries where Romans have gone through.

Idk, for me this is applicable for game purposes.

And I don't like the idea that they can only be good in early game. (They aren't okay. They sure are not when you can only train then in the 12th turn.) They should last till end where for me, they indeed do but only because of other units. Not really mostly because of them. It's like the Companion cav to the macedonian phalanx.

[L4cus]

well if we talk about formation, then manipular formation was far better than phalanx, they didnt go back to it because they wanted, rome was in decadence. it was not a case of adaptation
and about adaptations, i dont think that can be represented in-game. and this upgrade is clearly not an adaptation but a buff, u are using adaptation now as an excuse. they are already really cheap, that kinda makes them versatil, i think thats enough adaptation for roman in the game. if we add upgrade then we will have to nerf current legionary, thats what happened with other units we have added upgrade to...

[phoenixffyrnig]

I agree with Dre here, there is no need to disallow this just because it wasn't universally applied to all legionaries.

Also no reason to disallow them for time reasons either imo - firstly this game doesn't really follow a linear time scale, and also Endru has stated he is willing to give a bit of artistic license for some situations where it is reasonable to believe a culture could easily have developed/advanced in such a way if need arose or time allowed. And I think for gameplay reasons it is important to give every faction at least a fighting chance of victory, a puncher's chance, if played well and to their strengths.

In the same way as the Celts, they are limited to being less technologically advanced compared to a "Normal" playthrough (most factions are, to an extent) - that is a better way of reflecting their early time period within the limitations of a game imo.

[phoenixffyrnig]

if we add upgrade then we will have to nerf current legionary, thats what happened with other units we have added upgrade to...

Not necessarily. In this case, roman camp and marian reforms are needed to access legionary. In recent cases where an upgrade has led to an initial nerf (eg siege tower and mantlet) these things have been available right from the very start.

As to the suggested stats, no comment from me because I haven't really explored a roman play through, but I do think some things need to be done to strengthen the Romans

[DreJaDe]

well if we talk about formation, then manipular formation was far better than phalanx, they didnt go back to it because they wanted, rome was in decadence. it was not a case of adaptation
and about adaptations, i dont think that can be represented in-game. and this upgrade is clearly not an adaptation but a buff, u are using adaptation now as an excuse. they are already really cheap, that kinda makes them versatil, i think thats enough adaptation for roman in the game. if we add upgrade then we will have to nerf current legionary, thats what happened with other units we have added upgrade to...

Well, I can agree with the first one but the second I do not.

Part of adaptation is to adapt based on problems which basically what you're talking about. That is still adaptation. And it is adaptation cause they are basically adapting to be able to fight their enemy better. An adaptation can be in the form of buffing them up. It is indeed an excuse and I think it is a valid one.

I also disagree with the last statements since the legionnaire are already a unit that is only balanced because they exist late in the game. You can rush but you'll lose. And using them on small maps and you can't even use them. Their strategy also being legionnaire dependent makes them even more at risk which by now, I can still handle since I can adapt using the mercs as shield till I can change strats.

Your logic of making them weaker doesn't make sense here since in the first place, they became cheaper because they aren't barely competent back then. The upg then would only make them unusable.

[DreJaDe]

I mean
If ever

[L4cus]

what about calling the current legionaries "reformed cohorts" or "republican legionaries" because ofthe mariam reforms and the republic period, and their upgrades would be "imperial cochort" or "imperial legionaries"...?so we would just keep the current sprite for the imperial and make another for the reformed, the early legionaries...