cannon and other ships built by workers - IMPLEMENTED

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cannon and other ships built by workers - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:54 pm

in the trebu. thread i saw a good point: cannon ships are asy to build by workers.

at the beginning i planned that a worker can build ships but much slower than in a shipyard, this is why a 4 turn cots ship is built in more than 10 turns by workers.

all ships should be like this, please post here your suggestion to change the current "bonusmendingwhenconstruting" value and i will change them.

especially the cannonship, i agree that in late game that is the mostly reated ship type, maybe the easy worker-building method is the reason - so i agree that the 8turn cost cannon ship should be around double effort to built than a simple 4turn cost warship (if the latter is about 10 turns, than cannon should be about 20 turns).

so please help me calculate the proper values for the bonusmendingwhenconstruting and the desires "turn cost" by workers.

as a help:
- the current 4turn cost warship is "bonusMendingWhenConstructing = 0.35f;" so 0.35 is the value.
- 8turn cost cannon ship: bonusMendingWhenConstructing = 0.21f;


thanks.

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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:06 pm

If u found that point interesting, here is anpther- with workers, u can build 1 mend ship in 4 turns, but in a castle u take 5 turns to build one. So if u have 4 workers, u can build 5. Mend ships in 5 turns(1 each turn)
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:11 pm

But i did not understand, how come the worker mends at different rates for different objects?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by DoomCarrot » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:14 pm

I think mending cost on ships needs a massive nerf. Right now docks are actually nooby and a waste of factory power to use, because you can build so many ships so much faster with workers+mend ships.

Also, mend ships need a massive massive nerf of on mend time. Think of it this way:

you have 4 workers. In one turn you have a mending ship. Next turn you have a 2.5 mending ships. Next turn you have 4 mending ships. And it just exponentially increases very ridiculously quickly. And with 10 workers its just out of hand.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:16 pm

True that. Agree 100%. I used to think mend ships as waste of time till recently i discovered their prowess.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by DoomCarrot » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:27 pm

Ok, so I apologize in advance to Hardeep: you are a good player, but this strategy has got to go, and I intend to do that with this post.

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As you can see in one of our games, I have conquered half the map. I also have many anti-ship units (not giving too much away). However, despite this, Hardeep has a fleet that not even heavy cats and fire archers can kill, despite the fact that me and Esley are BOTH trying to stop him. He decimated Esley's army and the war between Hardeep and I has turned into a contest of who can spam ships the best.... So far he is winning...

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Now, in this map, Hardeep is quite trapped. I admit he is probably screwed ( :P ). However, nonetheless, Esley's fire archers are almost useless against his hordes of catapult ships. Shouldn't fire archers beat ships? Not ships beating fire archers? The main issue is there are just way too many ships. We basically have no way to kill him, but he has no way to kill us, so its going to stall the game a long time until we can full-scale destroy his entire fleet all at once. Otherwise the damn mending ships just regenerate the fleet.

Case in point: Ships are stupidly easy to build, mending ships are very OP, and Hardeep is a spammer :P (P.S. Not a sore loser, this is just a very annoying "strategy").
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:53 pm

Well hardeep may be a good player actually, but by what ypu have posted and what i have observed is that he solely relies on building mend ships and workers and spams them so much that the whole seas ovserflow. But why dont you attack him with ornis? he has very few ranged units and ornies can destroy him
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:01 pm

Yes mendship also should be about 10 turns with workers

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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:06 pm

In the first map, I barely needed the fleet to kill like 3 archers, the rest was part of an ancient RiverRaider tactic I picked up when fighting him, which is why I refrained from commenting when killing his army. I know that he's never witnessed such a bloody act and that it will shake him to the core ;)

The in the second map, i don't know what Esleys doing, I mean noone wins a war with only fire archers! The map is pretty much that time we were fighting River (Angland!), except theres a strip of water in between. The problem? The map is on reveal, so I can see where and how he will strike me every time.

Now since something needs to be changed, I'd say that its the mend ships fault. The fact that the ships are much more protected and easy to build makes them ripe for overproduction. The second thing to blame is ambidextria itself! I personally don't know the turn cost of a making catapult ship (16?) But its way to low with Ambidextria. Another way to fix would be to get rid of mending ships being able to mend under construction ships.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by DoomCarrot » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:09 pm

TheBluePhoenix wrote:Well hardeep may be a good player actually, but by what ypu have posted and what i have observed is that he solely relies on building mend ships and workers and spams them so much that the whole seas ovserflow. But why dont you attack him with ornis? he has very few ranged units and ornies can destroy him
How to counter orthnicopters: 1 xbow :lol:

Besides, it takes me 5 turns to research, 5 turns to build just one, which can suicide bomb one catapult ship, but he can build a cat ship in 2 -3 turns at the most. Also, he has a lot of xbows I'm pretty sure

Also, to be fair to you Hardeep, that skirmisher line that popped out of those towers and slaughtered Elseyvwas indeed very well planned. But he also had like... 6 heavy knights that got massacred by swarms of ships :lol:

Lastly, your ideas on how to fix this are all pretty good.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:17 pm

And If I told you that none of his heavy knights needed to be hit by ships in order to kill them?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by DoomCarrot » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:40 pm

Hardeep wrote: I have like two crossbows
Lies, I see 4, and I will not be duped into a trap like you lured poor Esley into :?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:32 pm

The problem is the number of workers you can build really.

Because making them longer to build changes nothing. My first strategy in AoS was spamming workers, and now mend ships. So I will continue to do that because workers = extra production turns.

Hardeep's horde is absolutely easy to defeat - you just have to outsmart it. The problem is that some of you are awful at water maps (Doom lol) :) I did not spam on Guadalcanal, I simply concentrated my forces where they were needed and stayed ahead in building and research. I attacked where I had the advantage and drew you out to where I had the advantage.

I will admit that spamming mend ships is really, really annoying; and I think that that must somehow change. But the problem is not the cannon ship or any other (for instance catapult ships are outranged by an upgraded fire archer and although cannon ships have equal range to land units, they are still relatively easy to defend against)

So I think that the solution should be
-Limit the number of workers (maybe 1 per TC)
-The lost mend power can be picked up by other units (Laborer, Mend Ship, etc)
-Maybe limit these other menders as well (so we don't spam mend ships everywhere)
Thanks!
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:35 pm

Hardeep wrote:Now since something needs to be changed, I'd say that its the mend ships fault. The fact that the ships are much more protected and easy to build makes them ripe for overproduction.
Very true
Hardeep wrote:The second thing to blame is ambidextria itself! I personally don't know the turn cost of a making catapult ship (16?) But its way to low with Ambidextria.
The cost does not change even with ambidextria. At least I didn't realize that.
Hardeep wrote:Another way to fix would be to get rid of mending ships being able to mend under construction ships.
Also true. That would stop the annoying mend ship spamming

The catships and canships hordes are not a problem. All hordes are free to make, but of course are inherently weak.
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:43 pm

To defeat Hardeep in the above maps

Easy: Plan an invasion force!!! You have greater production! Save it to smash him! Time is your friend! A ratio of 2:1 becomes 4:2 next turn and 8:4 and 16:8 and 32:16 GIVING A 16 TURN PRODUTION DEFICIT THAT HE CANNOT MATCH :)

Build smarter. Build trebs and cats and cannons to wipe out his fortifications in one blow. Outrange his pitiful catships. Build a strike force of MORE than 1 orni. STRIKE AT ONE TIME INSTEAD OF PIECEMEAL.

On the second map 1) outrange his ships again or 2) build wagons to load your fire archers out of range and then strike! Yes you foolishly gave him control of the sea, securing a large portion of his front. Yes, he used annoying spams of mend ships, but the map was on reveal so you both knew pretty much what you were doing.

Forgive any shoutings please, but this game is Age of Strategy, not Age of Luck. Hordes are a strategy, but usually are inherently weak ones.
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:49 pm

Well restricting no. of workers is no option. I always believe that a flourishing nation is one which has a strong workforce rather than a strong army.
I feel the soln. To the problem is for everything to require x4 turns that are required for building in tcs. Reason , 4 workers can work on 1 unit at the same time. And they should be able to build it in the same time as a tc
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:52 pm

Sure, but then what is your beef with spamming mend ships and workers to build massive invasion hordes.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:53 pm

Strong production = strong labor, but you will notice that we limited Factories AND Castles.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:56 pm

Well i feel mendship should be a worker who knows to swim , nothing else which has a bit more health and armour. So if the cost of each unit is made 4 times that required in the tc for 4 workers to build, that will be enough because exactly 8 workers/menders can build the same unit in 1 whole turn. That way, spamming wont help. everything will take equally long
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:04 pm

Spamming will still help. It will be equivalent to having an extra TC so of course it would help!
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Josh

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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:07 pm

Well then how about 4 workers per tc limit?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:15 pm

I please refrain from enlightening them on how to defeat me :D
Like the great First Speaker The Mute once said "The best way to learn is by doing" or something like that
Seriously, A cap on workers! Why! Cause you can just come over and kill them?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:36 pm

Hardeep wrote:I please refrain from enlightening them on how to defeat me :D
Like the great First Speaker The Mute once said "The best way to learn is by doing" or something like that
Seriously, A cap on workers! Why! Cause you can just come over and kill them?
Lol as your true friend, I suppose I have the best insights on how to stop you. I had pity on these because they will never win a water map (DoomCarrot) until they stop building infantry on them and learn that YOU MUST CONTROL THE SEAS TO WIN THOSE MAPS
TheBluePhoenix wrote:Well then how about 4 workers per tc limit?
Idk it sounds fine. What is Hardeep's current Worker:TC ratio?
Thanks!
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by COOLguy » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:39 pm

And why limit the workers? Does anyone remember before the Castles were limited?

Everyone spammed castles, because they were an unlimited producer. Games were no fun and clogged with castles even though the turn cost was high

We had no problem limiting factories or castles, so I see no reason to balk at limiting workers the last unlimited producers in the game
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:26 pm

Hmmm i think thats fine too. So i think finally, this should be done-
1.4 workers per tc limit
2.Make the mend rate in such a way that everything takes x4 time to build by 1 worker compared to that in castle
3.Equalise mend rates of all menders
So any problems with this dev?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:16 pm

But the thing is, 'spamming' workers isn't possible in an average map. This is because if you spam workers, you leave yourself so vunerable that it is almost impossible to hold territory. I have not seen a single map where spamming workers has been an issue. Since they are so weak and pathetic, pretty much any player can easily quash them at any moment. Plus, spamming fortifications wouldn't work either as it takes LOTS of room to even begin. Since workers have to be out of building cover when building, they are suspectible to nearly any offensive strategy. Doom simply is particularly against workers since he is very.... not aggressive? Which shouldn't be how anyone plays in age of Strategy against an opponent.
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:18 pm

TheBluePhoenix wrote:Hmmm i think thats fine too. So i think finally, this should be done-
1.4 workers per tc limit
2.Make the mend rate in such a way that everything takes x4 time to build by 1 worker compared to that in castle
3.Equalise mend rates of all menders
So any problems with this dev?
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:27 pm

I agree with u but there has to be a limit on workers/menders. You are a spammer yourself, as was evident in the map we are presently playing(yes the one in which u are pathetic) in which you had a stronger stand at the start by building a lot of workers and a line of defence. But my trebs destroyed everything. So i agree that eventhough spamming is bad, it can be countered. But that is only when towers are spammed, not units like canon ships. I also feel that the workers should be able to build only some basic unit and not almost every non living unit that is present in game
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:32 pm

I am a spammer though at any given point of the game I had less than 4 workers per TC? Makes sense. And The only reason I had to build workers was because I was the only one blocked by a river
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Re: cannon and other ships built by workers

Post by Hardeep » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:33 pm

Your arguements are sound, but they make no sense as it is impossible to flourish off of spamming
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