Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED

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Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:18 pm

Just comparing it to winged hussar provides enough proof:
Hussar Centurion
Cost: 6 6
Hp: 35 40
Attack power: 12 14
Armor: 0 3
Pierce Armor: 2 1
Speed: 6 5
Sight: 6 8
Spell resistance: 100% 100%
Special: Aura

Centurion only disadvantage over Hussar is speed (which is specialty of Winged hussar) and pierce armor which is almost balanced by larger hp.
I think centurion attack should be reduced to maybe normal 10 and his hp and/or armor to normal knight (35 and 2 respectively)
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by COOLguy » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:13 pm

I agree since the centurion is really for his commanding ability (his special aura).

Adjusting its attack to 10-12 should balance it nicely (in my opinion). As it is, I have a really hard time killing them, especially given that they beef up the stats of their surrounding units.
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Stratego (dev) » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:59 pm

ok, i changed it to 35 hp, and to 10 power.
and also modified the "high morale" to affect only roman legionaries, nothing else.
what do u think?
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Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:34 am

No, now it's really useless as many other units

Can't we just raise the cost and leave it as a useful unit?
We are full of useless units ans we really don't need more...
By the awy, the unit was balanced around the idea of being a heavy knight with commanding bonus, and his stats were pretty similar to a heavy knight, the bonus was meant for every unit with an increased bonus to legionaries (never implemented).
Removing the bonus to other units and reducing the stats by comparing it with the hussar (one of the most useless unit in game, that is good only for his speed) will make it loose any purpose...
Why should i bother building a unit that is weak compared to a heavy knight, that cost 2 rounds more and that give a bonus just to legionaries (that aren't that useful themselves)?

A player will just stick to building again just knights, halberdiers and man at arms... and what's the point in having a game with 100 units when you always use the same?
I can't really see the logic behind...
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Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Darkknight » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:57 am

I also agree with Alexander82. I dont think the high moral should only affect legionaries. But i dont agree that the cebturion should be like a heavy knight because the main purpose of this unit is to make nearby units stronger not a good fighting unit. I think that its armor should also be made to 1.

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Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:49 am

so it is too weak now.
ok, than please discuss it and come to a conclusion, and i will change so.

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Re: Centurion OP

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:11 am

Why are we reducing a good unit to make it equivalent to a bad unit instead of making the bad one good??
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:18 am

we cannot reduce the turn cost as knight(4) , hungarian hussar(5) and winged hussar(6) have to be different in power and hence turn cost
So all we are left qith is to improve its stats as follows:
Cost 6
Hp 40
Attack power 18
armour 1
Pierce armour 1
Speed 7 ( their special ability was their speed which should be more than any other cavalry unit)
Sight 7
This should make them useful enough
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:48 am

Image
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Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:29 pm

Alexander82 wrote: ... his stats were pretty similar to a heavy knight ...
No, it was way better:
Hussar/Centurion/Heavy knight
Cost: 6/6/4 (+ research 6)
Hp: 35/40/35
Attack power: 12/14/12
Armor: 0/3/2
Pierce Armor: 2/1/2
Speed: 6/5/5
Sight: 6/8/5?
Spell resistance: 100%/100%/0%
Special: none/Aura/none

As you can see a Winged hussar has similar stats to heavy knight and if we assume they are equals in power - their cost effectiveness would balance each other at 18 turns (building 3 hussars * 6 turns vs building 3 knights * 4 turns + 6 turn research).
Alexander82 wrote: Why should i bother building a unit that is weak compared to a heavy knight, that cost 2 rounds more and that give a bonus just to legionaries (that aren't that useful themselves)?

A player will just stick to building again just knights, halberdiers and man at arms... and what's the point in having a game with 100 units when you always use the same?
I can't really see the logic behind...
If we will demand special units to be equal to upgraded basic units, then they would be too much for non-upgraded ones (for example when beginner player still didn't buy this upgrades). So the problem you are discussing here is existence of upgrades for basic units or the other way around - no upgrades for the rest of them.
TheBluePhoenix wrote:we cannot reduce the turn cost as knight(4) , hungarian hussar(5) and winged hussar(6) have to be different in power and hence turn cost
So all we are left qith is to improve its stats as follows:
Cost 6
Hp 40
Attack power 18
armour 1
Pierce armour 1
Speed 7 ( their special ability was their speed which should be more than any other cavalry unit)
Sight 7
This should make them useful enough
Actually more historically accurate would be some other things - Polish winged hussars used some special breed of tarpan - horse, which was strong, had good condition but was not especially fast. Winged hussar charge was fearsome because of long ( 5.66 meters - over 18 ft long) but light lance that could pierce through few rows of pikemen, their exceptional training and equipment (In some cases they fought as archer or light infantry unit) and the fact that after the charge they were withdrawing at back of the army where they were given rested horses and new lance (it was one-time use only) which made an illusion that the charge was endless.
So I would leave their stats but just give them trample.
Alexander82 wrote:Image
That would be good, but maybe area damage or greater attack for hussar instead of that huge of a speed
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:39 pm

heavy knight hp is 39, not 35.

The heavy knight halso has a higher pierce armor, so imho it's pretty balanced. It's the hussar that is weak, also compared to a normal non-upgraded knight. Also special units don't benefit from smiths improvements, so they loose anyway compared to basic units
When i play i produce the heavy knight tech as soon as i can and i can assure you that is effective. Heavy knight are my favorite units in game and i think that a 6 turn tech doesn't make them that much weaker... Once you made it you can have hundreds of improved knight for a decent cost; that's why special units must be really "special" or they are useless compared to an already great unit.

Hussars just give you some speed and some weaker stats compared to an heavy knight. They might be almost decent if you play in a fast map with 2 tcs and few space for development and you focus on other upgrades (archers or swordman) and you just need some cavalry, but, in the end, if you don't focus on improving cavalry you are going to use something else to win your game...

And, about new layer without improvements, they can play maps without upgrades (it is possible and it might be a good way to learn the game) or single player maps and earn all the gems they need...
Last edited by Alexander82 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:04 pm

About heavy knight hp - sorry - my mistake. Although I agree with almost everything you write. I actually don't really use hussar just knight and lancers ( sometimes light cavalry and elephants and others rarely), because heavy versions make these units best. But old stats of centurion made spamming him among some infantry better than heavy knight.
In my opinion all special units should benefit from blacksmith research. Blacksmith upgrades only for basic units would be good if no upgrades to another unit existed.
Also even AI sometimes gets annoying spamming too strong special units at the start.
The one thing I fear is trying to balance all infantry to level of man-at-arms - it would be just too freaking much.
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:10 pm

In that case we should make some real upgrades for other units. For national units it's normal that they are superior
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:46 pm

soon i am publishing so i changed to this for now, we can polish it later:
u.costTurn = 7;
u.sight = 6; //visiblity range
u.hpMax = 40; //health points
u.armorPierce = 3; //how big the armor against arrows
u.armorNormal = 2; //how big the armor against normal attack
u.power = 14; // u.power of its attack

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Re: Centurion OP

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:07 pm

It is for hussar or centurion?
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by COOLguy » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:05 pm

That looks better. (It is basically the old stats for the centurion, but cost 7 instead of 6)
I like it.
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:52 pm

Yes, and it also should have the double bonus for legionaries
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by COOLguy » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:53 am

Good point, and also future Roman units too. :)
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:11 am

Yep! :D
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:33 am

Daniel, can you add the double bonus? In the original idea i've called it "legion commander" and it has exactly the same effect of "high morale" skill but it only affect roman units (like legionaries and centurions) and it stack with the high morale bonus
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:53 am

yes, i will!
i will need an indicator image for that too.
the morale is this:
indicator_morale.png
indicator_morale.png (281 Bytes) Viewed 5524 times
maybe this could be the new (seems legion badge like), an then we need one for morale

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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:13 am

ok, i'll make one right now
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:18 am

what about that?
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:02 pm

i like the first one
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Darkknight » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:45 am

I still think that this is too strong. It needs to have less attack or less health because the AI are making quite a lot of these and it is very hard to kill so if a player is using centurion as a fighting unit not a unit that makes other units better I think that it would be very very difficult to win.

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Re: Centurion OP

Post by TheBluePhoenix » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:48 am

No the centurion is now fine. I have made a map using them and other roman units. It will be in the next update. Check it out and you will know that they can be easily killed. Just penetrate the formation with strong units and then ambush the centurion with lancers and pikemen. Thats all. It was bwtter previously also but was just op compared to hussars. Hence a different turn cost was nweded which is now implemented. More restrictions will ruin this good unit
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by HokanPL » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:48 am

I agree with TheBluePhoenix

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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:52 pm

TheBluePhoenix's right. Now it is longer to build and has 1 less armor (meaning 5 attacks from non-upgraded knight not 6). He is still better than hussar, but it's not op.
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by COOLguy » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:02 pm

Better than hussar:

If you mean better than hussar like "I want a strong unit to beef the stats of surrounding infantry" then yes you're right.
But if you mean better as in "I want a super fast unit with a high attack and moderate resilience to mop up a field of infantry" then you are very much wrong.

Centurion vs hussar: better for you maybe, but let's not make blanket statements. :D
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Re: Centurion OP

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:29 pm

You are right COOLguy. It was an overstatement.
Hussar has it's niche, just for me centurion is better fit - I use him more often (pikeman killing knights without the need for tower/archer shot before is really nice).
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