The Phantom Update

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makazuwr32
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by makazuwr32 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:09 pm

What about keeping its shield but decreasing range down to 1 and maybe decreasing anti-cav bonuses it has?

Not complete removal of its anti-cav role but making it not that big.

I like its image current and also removal of shield will mean that this phantom will loose its increased p.armor which i do not like.

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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:38 am

we can have one that is anti cavalry and another that has a big shield and it is not anti cavalry
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:58 am

Well the current pikeman is perfect for what it is intended, so i think it's better to not mess there... Btw when you say "lose its shielder status". When did it had received such status? I mean... Just bcz it has a shield, doesn't mean that it is a shielder :lol: ...

Btw you are comparing it with bastion? Bcz bastion isn't meant to be anti-cav but a guard(ian), spear is usefull against calvary yes, but the idea is to keep foot foes at bay.

Also for its img, the shield of a bastion should be bigger and much more dense
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:00 am

Here is a well know example.
Image
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Alexander82
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:49 am

Yes, spartans used spear and shield as well but:

- short spears are not particularly useful against cavalry

- halberds are used with two hands

So I prefer to remove the shield from the specific anti cavalry unit or change its weapon to a short spear and give it normal infantry bonuses.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:55 am

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:58 am
Well the current pikeman is perfect for what it is intended, so i think it's better to not mess there... Btw when you say "lose its shielder status". When did it had received such status? I mean... Just bcz it has a shield, doesn't mean that it is a shielder :lol: ...
Cause we are planning specific abilities that will be given to shield users. Since at the time phantoms' stats were made a bit randomly (as most of other unit's stats we made some time ago), I'd like to make them in a more sub-like way, like we did with glade, imperials and other subs.

their survailability will be given from multiple resurrections and they will have a new shielder to compensate lack of that specific shield.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:23 pm

Alexander82 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:49 am
Yes, spartans used spear and shield as well but:

- short spears are not particularly useful against cavalry

- halberds are used with two hands

So I prefer to remove the shield from the specific anti cavalry unit or change its weapon to a short spear and give it normal infantry bonuses.
Well, first of all, phantom pikeman does carry a pikeaxe, not a halberd, the pole can be much bigger, but its size is just limited to the confortable canvas of the img.

The phatoms are not limited by muscles to hold their things, but only to its awakening enchant and the supply of magic used on said creation, for a person of flesh, it would be hard to swing these big weapons with a single arm, not even considering the weight of the armor, and there i agreed with the dual handling on this weapon. But since this is not the case with phantoms, they can and they do, while they are literally walls of steel, their mere existance is enough to defy gravity, but due mass-production reasons, the armors of such army are limited to use a small ammount of their supply just to keep them active and pieced together, so gear weight can and is ignored by them, meaning that: They are heavy and they can hold heavy stuff without problems unlike living beings.

So i don't like the idea to remove its shield, it is almost a trademark of this unit between anti-cav units, btw shortening the weapon would make it a poleaxe, which would overlap Bastion's weapon, and i don't think that is a good idea, but One big thing is that, pikeman is an offensive unit focused on cav, while bastion is an defensive unit, and unlike the pikeman, Bastion focus should be on the shield and its defensive capabilities.
Alexander82 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:55 am

Cause we are planning specific abilities that will be given to shield users. Since at the time phantoms' stats were made a bit randomly (as most of other unit's stats we made some time ago), I'd like to make them in a more sub-like way, like we did with glade, imperials and other subs.

their survailability will be given from multiple resurrections and they will have a new shielder to compensate lack of that specific shield.
I'm aware of these shield augments, but the thing is that, the pikeman is not a shielder, or defender, its task is to take out calvary and it does perfectly, just bcz it has a shield doesn't mean that it is a defender/shielder. The basic Swordman of every race (beside elven one) has a shield and isn't considered a defender/shielder, most of the spear and axe throwers of every race own a shield and they aren't considered as defender/shielders, most of calvary and mounted units own a shield and even them aren't considered as such... So why the pikeman should be if there is the bastion who will be entirelly focused for these things?

Btw their stat are Not totally random, their stats where made around the ones of the imperials and glades of that time, Imperial sub got changed/bumped, glaves aswell, while these remained, tho, newer stats should follow more their natural traits and not be an imperial copy-paste, their visual and reanimation are two traits, but not the only ones. Imperials and glades are still living beings inside armors, these are not but THE armor itself just to begin...

Btw none complains about them being a sub, in fact, everyone is looking foward to it. :lol:
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:25 am

Sooo, should I change the bastions weapon to the spear like that in the image and make shield look more robust? Or should I give it a mace instead of a flail and we could just give it the ability to stun enemies in hit. (Could have a percentage actually.) And still make shield look more robust.

I agree that the bastion is supposed to be more defensive based tank. I also agree on the phantoms ability to defy the laws of physics were wait is concerned (If they wanted to they could even walk across water) so wielding a polearm weapon wouldn't be too difficult for them when added a shield, if anything you could just decrease their range to 1 and just make them a defensive pikemen (like the glave sentinel). They won't be a shielder either way. Besides this we could just leave their armour at 3/6 were the shield just supplies an extra boost to their pierce armour, same with normal shielder being that their health could make up for it.


As for stats I think they match perfectly for the sub race, maybe with the new phantom upgrades you could lower the shielders base hp down to 60 and leave the 70 up for the final upgrade which I presume is golden form.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:58 am

Just remove the shield from the pikeman, about the bastion I think that a mace or a flail will both work well and being a dedicated shielder it will be fine with a bigger shield.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Sun May 03, 2020 4:01 pm

Updated.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Sun May 03, 2020 4:04 pm

I'll do the 2 pikemen units later, plus a remake on my map editor unit too. (Phantom pikemen, Phantom guardian)

Also, @General Brave have you made the golden forms for the phantoms yet? Because I could get those done to it you haven't while I'm at it.

I have the colour template for the previous gold ones saved.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Sun May 03, 2020 5:43 pm

Phantoms won't have tiers so no golden forms are needed.

If you want them for maps feel free to make them though.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Mon May 04, 2020 5:50 am

But they still will have blacksmith like upgrades correct? Because that would be helpful.

Aside from that is that more fitting for the bastion?

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon May 04, 2020 10:59 am

They will get ability to drop corpses and raise back at their full glory. That is enough.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Mon May 04, 2020 2:56 pm

Still feel we could do more, like 1 upgrade for example but make it crossover with other groups like death knights who could use such upgrades as well. It would be no different then skeletons except skeletons are easier to get. Phantoms however could be killed and stepped on after they die just like that. And being how much they cost, "reanimation to former glory," isn't that much to work with. At that point the ranged phantoms would be a better pick for the player due to higher chance of their corpses sticking around long enough for one to reanimate. Also corpses don't spawn if phantoms did in a tc, meaning the ability is useless in their were a high hp and defence unit would be best put if one has to defend against archers for example who can easily dispatch of enemy troops at a safe distance and can get upgrades leading to them having up to 8-9 range. Safe behind allied troops or terrain and just far enough to be out of range of skirmishers. Or if the said enemy had giants, your base non upgradable troops would be easy pickings for say a troll.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by makazuwr32 » Mon May 04, 2020 8:16 pm

Nah they will not have any stats upgrades. That is for sure. Alex does not want any stats upgrades for non-skeleton undeads.

Also after one tech their corpses will become unsteppable and you will need to actually attack them in order to remove from the map.

And third tech will make the way that you will require 2 guaranteed hits to kill that corpse. Even if your unit has over 9000000000 attack.

Also another thing about phantoms is that they will be reanimatable again and again and again and again and again and again until you destroy their corpse. So reanimated phantom also drops its corpse and so on.
Can that troll reraise infinitely from critical damage?

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Tue May 05, 2020 5:10 am

You can do something similar by using 100% regeneration :lol:

Anyway, so generally phantoms are:
Pros:
Reanimatable
Tough (ish, depending on any stat changes in future)
Upgrades to reanimation

Cons: (more like what they can't have really)
No leader units
No upgrades to stats
No cavalry (though it would still be nice being that if the mansion is being switched to a necroplis, then most likely the decorative armours would be lining the tombs of fallen kings as an expression of their great power and wealth that they once had. Being that this is fantasy it doesn't necessarily have to be a horse armour either, but possibly something more impressive. But that's just my opinion.)
No side abilities other then the base weapon ones like imperial have (so basically no spells)
No giants

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:20 pm

100% regen will not allow to save already dead unit.

They will have some basic abilities which their unit type have (for example swing around ability for dual wielding phantom similar to dual swoddman of humans and sword dancer of elves).

I alas think that phantom juggernaut can be in as trainable unit.

As for cavalry - use cav from unholy order.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Wed May 06, 2020 4:26 am

The new phantom juggernaut is actually just a heavier infantry.

As for the cavalry, it's a map editor unit.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon May 11, 2020 11:45 am

i have pulled the nice images of phantoms and their corpses for existing units and put them in as default appearance.
also we have the old "skins" - email me if anyone would like to help jsoning their "retro" skins.

thanks!

daniel

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Mon May 11, 2020 5:31 pm

Has anything changed on the subject of spearmen and shields? Btw the final picture for the map editor phantom.

Being that this is a fantasy world I figured some nobles might have some dragon armour displayed somewhere showing that they or someone in their family line was once a dragon rider. Since their wouldn't be any armour for wings though this would be closer to what it would look more like.

Any thoughts?
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Wed May 13, 2020 11:16 pm

No, nothing changed for both subjects. Btw can you tell me if you are going to make the pikeman without shield, otherwise I will know I have to make it.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Thu May 14, 2020 5:04 pm

I needed to know if anything changed on that, that's why I asked. Because I was going to make 2 variants similar to the 2 imperial ones but with a slight difference in the second.

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Savra » Thu May 14, 2020 5:09 pm

Aside from the top image, which phantoms were approved? @Alexander82

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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Thu May 14, 2020 7:09 pm

If you can sum up al current pending units I will give all details you need
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by LordOfAles » Thu May 14, 2020 7:37 pm

Hello, i have some complaints concerning the newest phantom unit images:

1. They look too non-undead. The armor seems a bit too "shiny" or bright, and resemble humans in quite a number of ways. They should definitely have darker colors. Also gold is overrated and overused.
2. They seem a bit blurry? I suggest making some edges in darker color.
3. Crusher's "chain" looks like a slinky.
4. Swordmaster's pose seems quite unnatural. I get that it's supposed to look like it's about to swing, but I preferred its old stance.
5. Is it me or they look smaller than before? They don't give out that menacing... aura they did before.
6. I actually support them having independent armor designs. It makes(made) them look unique, cooler and in my opinion, easier for the eyes.

For the time being i actually suggest bringing back the old phantom models.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by DoomsdayDragonfire » Thu May 14, 2020 9:11 pm

LordOfAles wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:37 pm
Hello, i have some complaints concerning the newest phantom unit images:

1. They look too non-undead. The armor seems a bit too "shiny" or bright, and resemble humans in quite a number of ways. They should definitely have darker colors. Also gold is overrated and overused.
2. They seem a bit blurry? I suggest making some edges in darker color.
3. Crusher's "chain" looks like a slinky.
4. Swordmaster's pose seems quite unnatural. I get that it's supposed to look like it's about to swing, but I preferred its old stance.
5. Is it me or they look smaller than before? They don't give out that menacing... aura they did before.
6. I actually support them having independent armor designs. It makes(made) them look unique, cooler and in my opinion, easier for the eyes.

For the time being i actually suggest bringing back the old phantom models.
Hi, i apreciate your feedback.

1. Yep, and it is just bcz they are just animated armors, nothing else, so they don't need to look undead-ish. Coloring is just my taste for it, where i like to see it being made of "twisted dalmascus", but its just impossible to make dark stripes of this layered metal within pixeling...

And now if you not aware, we can have with skins, you can make a dark or rusty skinset if you think that could look better for you. You could even make a WH40k alike skinset if you want (and i strongly recomend you to try :lol: )
2. ^^^
3. Didn't understand... How exactly you think it should look alike?
4. Old stance will be on "Retro skin pack" alongside the previous imgs of them.
5. Nope, its actually the oposite, you can pick the older ones and compare the size if you want to be sure.
6. I used to think that, tho seing them in game, while they looked unique, they don't see to belong to anywhere else, even between the ones of their own... So decided that standarized seens better, at least for me, in the end, its a matter of taste.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Thu May 14, 2020 9:32 pm

1) I agree with @DoomsdayDragonfire , anyway if we wanna try a darker hue it wouldn't hurt so feel free to try that if you think we can make them fit more the race
2) I don't understand what images are blurry. I think that the old one are just not well shaded (but they are old designs, so it is not uncommon)
3) I don't get what you mean here, please give us some examples
4) I personally like that stance a lot (I have asked it in the first place), and it makes it look pretty unique and recognizeable
5) I think it is just cause the old images had bad shading and cause of that looked more blocky, but anyway they are animated human sized armor so it is fine for them to look human sized, like imperials or such units. We might try giving them something else if we want to make them look more menacing (maybe glowing evil eyes?)
6) I want them to look as they are part of the same group. I'm not saying they should all look the same but they should at least share their color palette. We might change details on the various models if they still share the color and uniqueness can be achieved also through using different stances (what I meant before with the swordman).

Anyway we can keep the old looks for now anyway but that will postpone the addition of new units.
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by LordOfAles » Thu May 14, 2020 9:43 pm

I see, very well then. I still have to figure out how do the skin packs work. (It's sort of new feature for me)
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Re: The Phantom Update

Post by Alexander82 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:04 am

I haven't tried them out either but anyway that would solve most of the issue related to arts preferences
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