Mongudai

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godOfKings
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Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:36 am

Upgrade of mongolian horse man
desc: elite heavy horse archer cavalry that is also fast

Hp:28
atk:6
range:4
action:2
sight:8
armor:0/0
speed:6
Also affected by blacksmith techs

builder: nomadic camp, archery range, tc (upgrade tech only in nomadic camp)
upgrade cost:6 turns
Last edited by godOfKings on Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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makazuwr32
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Re: Mongudai

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:00 am

But mongolian archer i think is trainable in tcs as well.

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Endru1241
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Re: Mongudai

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:26 am

It is.
You are right makazuwr.

On topic - Why Heavy?
Nothing really indicates either in game nor historically that any mongol archers were heavy in armor or battle tactics.
On the contrary - their equipment and battle tactics scream "light cavalry to the core".
But the stats are OK. Maybe apart of sight: +2 bonus seems great. Maybe original was just lacking and should be 7 instead?

There is other important thing - I'd allow mongol archers (and mangudai of course) to benefit archery and archer armor research. If slinger can have it, why not them? But I was wondering if lower any other stats.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Mongudai

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:34 am

I'd say if they will benefit from archery techs than this upgraded version should not gain additional armor.
Sight range for normal one should be raised to 7 if he will be affected by those techs as for me.

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Re: Mongudai

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:26 am

Wait, I actually honestly didn't notice armor.
Of course I disagree with knightly armor on horse archers. It would give them too much survivability vs other archers. We already had this once with heavy horse archers and there was evident need to rebalance.
I only thought of +6hp,+1power (x2), +sight.
I compare it to slinger, which gets +2hp, +2(x2) power.
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godOfKings
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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:00 pm

If it gets blacksmith upgrades it won't need armor, I just imagined a short ranged archer with good defense, but with blacksmith effect it will have 6 range then it won't need high armor
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:02 pm

But don't forget its a second tier unit that is upgraded in a specialized building with many weaknesses, main purpose would b to kill workers though
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

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makazuwr32
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Re: Mongudai

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:16 pm

Because unit himself will still be producable in tcs and archery range it will still keep his purpose of fast annoying archer against infantries, workers, cavalry...

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Gral.Sturnn
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Re: Mongudai

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:48 pm

On the early stages of the mongol empire they obviously didnt have armor as the trives united, but later on as they grew and conquered Genghis Khan could conceal armor for his warriors, obviously it was a comodity that not everyone had but even after Genghis death the mongols kept using armor, dont forget the mongols sieged castles and cities too.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/436989970064088548/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_armour

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/569142471654529578/
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godOfKings
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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:44 pm

in civ 5, they were equivalent of heavy knights
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Re: Mongudai

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:11 pm

@Gral.Sturnn , @godOfKings I believe You two are mixing two different things. Yes mongol army had heavy armored mounted warriors.
They did not however made a bulk of the army.
Mongols had heavy, heavily armored lance using cavalry - clearly equivalent of european knights.
But most of the army was made of light cavalry, using recurved short bow as a main weapon - these are the units we are talking about.
Mangudai is just the name of warrriors from one of the most known tribes.

One more thing - almost all archer units had some armor, like pretty much all people ever on medieval battlefields. You could die from measily cut if things got wrong - e.g. infection.
Just because unit have 0/0 armor stat doesn't mean it has no armor.
Physical armor is also represented by increased hp.
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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:06 pm

But in here, armor is mainly to ensure it doesn't get one shot by u know wat, any plan on reducing spearman bonus? I have removed the armor in stats
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

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Re: Mongudai

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:15 pm

Again. Reminder that he will receive cavalry or archer armor techs so he eventually will gain those 2/2 armor.

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godOfKings
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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:21 pm

godOfKings wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:00 pm
If it gets blacksmith upgrades it won't need armor, I just imagined a short ranged archer with good defense, but with blacksmith effect it will have 6 range then it won't need high armor
Read my first post stat again I already edited it long ago :arrow:
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Mongudai

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:39 pm

I mean that literally everyone in dev chat in aof is crying about huge bonuses which anti-cav units have against cavalry and here you than about the same thing.

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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:55 pm

I think bonus can b reduced as long as pike still 2 shots Knight but that is another topic, and first thing first, I need to study current category structure endru made properly b4 I create any post with new balancing suggestion
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: Mongudai

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:25 pm

Halbeldier one-shoting cavalry was actually one of the things I wanted to rebalance first. Spearman itself is fine, but the worst is, that any bonus - blacksmith, fervor, morale is multiplied by 5.5, while the armor stays the same. For now I got rid of reach +2 bonus, which made halbeldier 55 base damage vs mounted, without external bonuses - now it's 44.
I think I'll lower bonuses along with real pikeman implementation, which will provide more tactical approach to infantry vs cavalry.
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Re: Mongudai

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:42 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:11 pm
@Gral.Sturnn , @godOfKings I believe You two are mixing two different things. Yes mongol army had heavy armored mounted warriors.
They did not however made a bulk of the army.
Mongols had heavy, heavily armored lance using cavalry - clearly equivalent of european knights.
But most of the army was made of light cavalry, using recurved short bow as a main weapon - these are the units we are talking about.
Mangudai is just the name of warrriors from one of the most known tribes.

One more thing - almost all archer units had some armor, like pretty much all people ever on medieval battlefields. You could die from measily cut if things got wrong - e.g. infection.
Just because unit have 0/0 armor stat doesn't mean it has no armor.
Physical armor is also represented by increased hp.
Yes im aware that armored mognolian archers were a minority but god of kings odea is just that.

In conclussion they were a minority but they did exist, and thats enough to make it historical, and addable to the game
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Endru1241
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Re: Mongudai

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:11 am

Gral.Sturnn wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:42 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:11 pm
@Gral.Sturnn , @godOfKings I believe You two are mixing two different things. Yes mongol army had heavy armored mounted warriors.
They did not however made a bulk of the army.
Mongols had heavy, heavily armored lance using cavalry - clearly equivalent of european knights.
But most of the army was made of light cavalry, using recurved short bow as a main weapon - these are the units we are talking about.
Mangudai is just the name of warrriors from one of the most known tribes.

One more thing - almost all archer units had some armor, like pretty much all people ever on medieval battlefields. You could die from measily cut if things got wrong - e.g. infection.
Just because unit have 0/0 armor stat doesn't mean it has no armor.
Physical armor is also represented by increased hp.
Yes im aware that armored mognolian archers were a minority but god of kings odea is just that.

In conclussion they were a minority but they did exist, and thats enough to make it historical, and addable to the game
No I'm talking about something else - Most heavy cavalry in the entire history had some sort of ranged weapon as side armament.
But we do not represent it in the game. Our heavy cavalry is always pure melee. AoS heavy cavalry also has not more than 5 speed In other words - I believe mongol army composition in game would be mixture of knights, lancers as 10-40% army and the rest a mixture of raiders, light cavalry, horse archers and most importantly and in biggest quantity - mongolian horsemen.
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Gral.Sturnn
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Re: Mongudai

Post by Gral.Sturnn » Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:39 am

aaaaaa i finally see what you meant
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Re: Mongudai

Post by godOfKings » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:15 am

If we consider AOK as base then mongudai was basically horse archer with higher range and higher atk rate, its atk rate almost made it op in large numbers, unfortunately aos do not have enough space in maps to keep such a large number :lol:

But aside from this if no one else has anything to say with stats then first post will b finalised post of stats, I will b working on image first
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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