assassin rework

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.

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godOfKings
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assassin rework

Post by godOfKings » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:13 am

@Endru1241 @Stratego (dev)

The purpose of the assassin is to kill an expensive and strategically useful unit of the enemy. But the problem in multiplayer game is most players would choose to hide such units in buildings and towers. Now if the current feature of killing buildings is eventually removed then killing units out in the open wouldnt b as useful and the other features like seeing enemy production menu could b done by spy, therefore making assassin unnecessary

So i suggest a new feature that is unique only to assassin. When assassin is next to enemy building and building has garrisoned units, then when the player sees wat units r in garrison, there will b a cross icon on top of the garrisoned units and players can sacrifice assassin to kill any one of the garrisoned units

It will b very useful like wen killing battering ram in tc, trebuchet in castle or tower, or if he is very lucky, a whole wagon filled with expensive siege units

But if player is unlucky and garrisoned unit is cheap, then his assassin will most likely b wasted as enemy player can see the assassin next turn.

With this feature no matter which castle the king hides, the assassin will still find him and kill him instead of takng down the entire castle :)
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Squirrel5555
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Squirrel5555 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:39 am

Im sick of a 4 turn unit destroying the castle i spent so long building, using up so many builder turns just for it to disappear

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Re: assassin rework

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:09 pm

But is it OK for a 16 turn catapult or cannon galleon to be taken out that way?

If: proper scouting is adopted, stone walls are put up, castles are not built on front lines, they are well defended by foot or horse, well supported by cannon and cannon towers or cats, and anti-wagon tactics are given some thought, then it will be pretty hard to pull off.

Admittedly I have held off with this tactic since GoK pointed out that Dev had previously announced he would remove this ability, but it isn't an unstoppable tactic.
I also play an RTS game called Life 8-)

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Re: assassin rework

Post by godOfKings » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:23 pm

Do u think its easier to assassinate catapult than it is to do castle? And where would an assassin even reach cannon galleon from?

And also once castle is taken out, its even easier to destroy any garrisoned catapult, i m not completely removing the idea of assassin sneak attacking castle, u can kill the unit garrisoned in castle, its less damage but still catapult ot trebuchet is more expensive than assassin, and once a battering ram in tc is killed, anything else can b killed with excess cannon and catapult attacks so it might actually b more useful this way

We could also make assassin not b able to attack ships, since its possible to secretly destroy rams and catapults (cut down ropes, pull out nails, damage supporting wood etc.), but not that easy to take out a whole ship in a short time
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Re: assassin rework

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:31 pm

Leave some bait somewhere where the cannon galleon can only get it from a coastal square. Most people seriously neglect scouting beyond the early game, and assassins are pretty decent at hiding in wait.
I also play an RTS game called Life 8-)

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Re: assassin rework

Post by godOfKings » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:01 pm

As i said, we can make it they cant kill ships since they r more expensive and difficult to escape, also include siege tower (but they will b able to kill the unit garrisoned inside galleon and siege tower)
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Re: assassin rework

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:20 pm

I disagree on exempting ships. They cost the same as siege weaponry (except for Galleon) , and the fact that they can stay safe at sea should be enough defence for them. If they wish to venture close to shore, then venture at your own risk.

As regards one guy taking out a whole ship, burning and scuttling spring to mind as easily achieved 'realistic' ways of doing it.
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Re: assassin rework

Post by godOfKings » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:23 pm

BUT....units inside galleon and viking ship can attack, so if u place an assassin inside galleon, it can kill triremes and other galleons at melee range, so ships should b exempted unless u want ur galleon instantly sunk by other galleon without any resistance :ugeek:

Besides, stop only thinking in terms of turns, there should also b realism in wat assassin can actually kill and wat it cannot
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Re: assassin rework

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:05 pm

Ooh I didn't know, I'm still waiting for my first galleon.

Realism can only go so far, this is a game, not a simulator. The assassin unit is a representation of various acts of subterfuge, arson, murder, sapping, sabotage - not just picking his toenails with his little knife.

Being completely realistic, an assassin wouldn't die on completion, Viking berserkers wouldn't be fighting shoulder to shoulder with samurai while Amazonian blowpipers wander about, spearmen would kill swordsmen most times, nobody would ever down tools for the weekend with a castle 1499.5 out of 1500 complete, and the dual concept of normal and pierce armour wouldn't exist.

Yes, realism is important, which is why I hate seeing uruk hai or tie fighters, but artistic licence must be given for the sake of a playable game. The nearest we can really claim to realism here is 'based on a true story.'
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Squirrel5555 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:16 pm

What kind of subterfuge leads to immediate termination of gargantuan defensive structures? I would like to know, it would probably be used constantly by armies in the middle ages...

As for anything else, i dont care, let it kill them all. But leave fortifications out, that should be left for a more specialist unit such as 'sappers' and even then it shouldnt evaporate the castle in one turn.

Its not balanced, that's all. To surround your castle with protective layers will take much longer than the production of a 4 turn unit.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:29 pm

phoenixffyrnig wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:05 pm
The assassin unit is a representation of various acts of subterfuge, arson, murder, sapping, sabotage - not just picking his toenails with his little knife.
I think it answers most of the concerns about reality.

As for balance:
Assasin is one attack only unit!
Yes it can destroy 16 turn castle, which is 4 times as long to get (well on paper - most of the times it's done by 4+ workers, so more like 4 turns).
And it's easily taken out by 1 turn scout.
But most importantly - making any limitations has the real possibility of making assassin useless.

If there is some issues - it's more with fast transportation of assassin (3 speed ram in 5 speed wagon and eventually in 5 speed transport).
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Squirrel5555 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:09 pm

The castle has 1500 HP!
The example with scout destroying assasin is not equal. For one, castles are immobile, so you can rely on them to stay in one play, and as you yourself have said, the assasin can be transported around extremely easily, hidden inside tanky units and are also invisible.
Two, 1 to 4 turns is not comparable to 4 to 16 turns, its a massive difference. Even if you see castle as 4 turn unit, how many builder actions did you use up? That still counts for a lot.

and finally i still want to know what kind of subterfuge reliably evaporates castles

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Re: assassin rework

Post by Endru1241 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:05 pm

Two, 1 to 4 turns is not comparable to 4 to 16 turns, its a massive difference. Even if you see castle as 4 turn unit, how many builder actions did you use up? That still counts for a lot.
1/4 is not comparable to 4/16. It's exactly the same.
There is no difference at all.
And castle can be build faster (more workers) much easier than assassin (money courier).

and finally i still want to know what kind of subterfuge reliably evaporates castles
And what siege machine evaporates buildings?
We are just making it simple in AoS by not presenting useless and hard to deal with things like e.g. rubble.

Also - castle is not necessarily, strictly a castle structure.
It's representation of central structure in defensive city, while still being the seat of power - local center of interest - a place where scientist and engineers could gather.
Destroying it could also mean making it unusable, e.g. by poisoning the castle well and killing all those people, that makes what castle produces and does.
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Squirrel5555 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:31 pm

What i mean by not comparable is if a scout kills an assassin you only lose 4 turns of 'production'... if an assassin kills your castle you are trading a 16 turn castle for 4 turn unit. You lose 12 turns of 'production'. Not comparable as it is much worse to lose 12 turns of 'production' than 4.
Sure castles can be built faster, eventually. But how many turns did it take to make all those builders? And it still takes up production, even if it is builder production.

I used the word evaporate not because nothing is left, but because the 1500 HP of the Castle disappears(something no other unit can do so quickly and easily), im not suggesting rubble should be added to the game.
Currently the assassin does the trebuchets job, killing defensive structures, more efficiently some of the time. Trebs are 7 turn production from vulnerable, 16 builder turns to build Castle, and take multiple shots to take down a castle. On the other hand if you can get an invisible unit to the Castle walls you take it out with no danger. Of course, trebs dont get used up when shooting, but the point still stands, considering all the other targets assassins would have even after you took away their ability to one shot castles.
Might aswell call it the Townhall then, looking at your ideas of what it should do, even though Castles were much of the time solitary defensive structures, surrounded by farms and peasants.
Making it unusable shouldnt make it collapse, something like disabling production inside for 4 turns, or killing a unit inside makes sense.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by Endru1241 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:37 am

What i mean by not comparable is if a scout kills an assassin you only lose 4 turns of 'production'... if an assassin kills your castle you are trading a 16 turn castle for 4 turn unit. You lose 12 turns of 'production'. Not comparable as it is much worse to lose 12 turns of 'production' than 4.
Sure castles can be built faster, eventually. But how many turns did it take to make all those builders? And it still takes up production, even if it is builder production.
Yeah - You'll loose 12 turns of production instead of 3. OK. But by sacrificing 4 turns of production instead of using 1 turn production unit (let's say sacrificing, because it's close to useless if there is no invisible units).
When it happens 4 times it's the same production output.
Please do not use logic of wealthy people advocating head tax as the most fair.
Currently the assassin does the trebuchets job, killing defensive structures, more efficiently some of the time. Trebs are 7 turn production from vulnerable, 16 builder turns to build Castle, and take multiple shots to take down a castle. On the other hand if you can get an invisible unit to the Castle walls you take it out with no danger. Of course, trebs dont get used up when shooting, but the point still stands, considering all the other targets assassins would have even after you took away their ability to one shot castles.
And yet, somehow trebuchets never stop being used. They are considered one of the best units. Why?
Might aswell call it the Townhall then, looking at your ideas of what it should do, even though Castles were much of the time solitary defensive structures, surrounded by farms and peasants.
From wikipedia:
Scholars debate the scope of the word castle, but usually consider it to be the private fortified residence of a lord or noble.
Lords or nobles rarely lived surrounded only by farms and peasants. Usually there were cities or towns formed around the castles.
Townhall on the other hand - has nothing to do with nobility. It also came much later.
Making it unusable shouldnt make it collapse, something like disabling production inside for 4 turns, or killing a unit inside makes sense.
Making it so unusable, that there is nothing, that makes a castle do what it does - it's the equivalent of collapse.
If all people inside are killed, production facilities, machines, defensive equipment destroyed or stolen, why wouldn't it be equivalent of total collapse?
When walls are attacked they are "evaporated", while in reality there would be whole walls with a single breach - just enough to travel through it.
The representation of castle is destroyed to make it clear, that You need to use the same amount of resources to rebuild it.
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Squirrel5555 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:17 am

When it happens 4 times- thats the point, its not an equal exchange.
Ill use whichever arguments i wish, thank you, unless you can convince me its a bad one :D

Trebs are considered one of the most powerful units because they are, that doesnt diminish the power of the assassin. The fact they can be compared shows there is something that needs changing with the assassin.

But primarily a defensive structure, yes? If not, what is the point of the massive stone walls and ramparts? I never said the townhall had anything to do with nobility. You said the castles could be a place for scientists and engineers to gather. As you dont seem to see the castle as a defensive structure, i suggested a different term, dont put too much meaning into it.
As i explained earlier by evaporate i didnt mean literally, i meant the sudden disappearance of 1500 HP, please dont misquote me

I struggle to see a dude, or group of dudes, consistently "shutting down" castles by killing all the people inside or otherwise. I don't see why you keep trying to make this connection, but okay.

I see you will not change the assassin, so i will stop discussing the topic before this escalates, good day *tips hat*

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Re: assassin rework

Post by DreJaDe » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:50 am

It's easier to defend against assassins than trebs.

It's a 4 turn unit defeating a 16 turn but in reality that doesn't really matter. LOL, you would have more than 4 workers by the time you start making castles and of course although castles is used as a defending structure you actually need to also defend it. Also I thought that's the point of Assasins, to easily eliminate an expensive unit.

If you want to look at the realism of it. Assassins can be the a spy which would sabotage the castle, well it can happen. Its not like assassin its only 1 unit when represented.

For game sense. I think it's just ok. We have a 1 turn spy and dog. If they are in the wagon then it is indeed a problem but that could just be a strategic point of the game. The limitation for both unit is already balanced for me.

LOL Actuallywhat's more op is you could actually make castles in 1 TURN. Realistically? None. Game sense? LOL Strategy? Awesome.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by SirPat » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:02 am

Here's an Idea Instead of Changing assassin let us change Castle, High Castle, Monastery, Fort, Wall, Gate, and marbe fortified buildings and Cathedral

The Idea is too add in Ruined buildings; there kinda broken structure's but not entirely.

When example Castle dies it will spawn Ruined Castle building Just like AoF skeletons when someone dies it leaves a skeleton on the place of death, but what does ruined building do It will act like the Ruined Fortress No one owns the ruined castle until someone enters building like TC but has no Attack, unit production except for something I'll tell later and heal and once owned by player units inside Ruined castle can attack and be attacked like TC and the only thing you can produce is a tech too Rebuild it too a castle which I suggest all ruined Building will have own tech too rebuild so that there won't be any confussion in coding so this build ing can only transform to this and this to that so each tech will be independent too each other and will be part of upgrade

Eg. If I bought castle in upgrade tree I will also unlock Rebuild castle tech for Ruined Castle and "all Ruined building techs" cost 3/4 of construction time of building
Types of ruined buildings and rebuild building techs

Building_Ruined__Castle and Tech_Rebuild_Castle

Building_Ruined_Fort and Tech_Rebuild_Fort P.S. give Fort Tech production for only this tech for now

Building_Ruined_Monastery and Tech_Rebuild_Monastery

Building_Ruined_High_Castle and Tech_Rebuild_High_Castle

And Others like Gate and Wall And Fortified Buildings You guys decide if this is needed
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Re: assassin rework

Post by godOfKings » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:57 am

I once heard of a Guinness world record probably in china about a group of engineers making 100+ storied building in a day, so its not unrealistic to build a castle in a day with enough workers,

as for the rest i suggest instead of killing whole castle, assassin can kill the unit garrisoned inside the castle and likewise for tc, other buildings and towers, it wont make assassin useless if it can take down a catapult or trebuchet inside the castle, or inside any other tower, but single human wiping out whole castle in one turn just doesnt make sense, @Endru1241 all the examples of possibilities u gave for wiping castle will still take a long time to accomplish

In fact my suggestion might make assassin more useful if it can one shot the battering ram guarding enemy tc. I m basically suggesting changing the role of assassin from castle slayer (no body makes assassin for any other reason) to being actually able to kill the strategic units of enemy player, the role it was originally meant to perform

We can also increase damage of petardier to make it more effective in damaging castle, may b deals 600 damage with self sacrifice?
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Re: assassin rework

Post by GBP » Tue May 05, 2020 1:39 am

Assassins only function is to kill castles.
Take that away and they are useless. You can counter/kill any other unit and tower quite easily with a combination of other units. Using 4 turns to build an assassin and transport him half the map to him to kill a cannon tower and dissappear is not a good strategy.
And saying that it makes them too OP or that the castle is too expensive for it to go down in one turn beats the point of the game: STRATEGY! when I build a castle I always build a scout tower and I never leave a space open for an assassin to sneak up on me. Being able to destroy a castle is just as much part of the strategy as it is to defend it.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:27 pm

In this case assasin can become cheaper.

Also it is unrealistic and we are trying to achieve more realisitic gameplay.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by Endru1241 » Tue May 05, 2020 11:17 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:27 pm
In this case assasin can become cheaper.

Also it is unrealistic and we are trying to achieve more realisitic gameplay.
So 3 turns?
In such case maybe it just could be valiable.
Still too expensive to use against regular units, but maybe key 6+ turns ones? Or in the emergencies.

The question stays - what about the balance of buildings?
It can't be that they are destroyed only with great effort, but quickly buildable.

Petardier could have additional ability to make more concetrated explosion - to take the assasin role (almost) for destruction of key buildings.
Or saboteur (invisible anti-buildibg) would be a better idea?
But what kind of damage and bonuses?
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Re: assassin rework

Post by AgentA » Wed May 06, 2020 12:40 am

Removing Assassin's capability to destroy a building in one hit will affect some of existing maps from campaign, from fans, etc. If this change happens, what will happen to those maps? Chances are it will be removed or revised.

My point is, this change is big and will require a lot thought or else it's gonna be a domino effect with negative impacts.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by SirPat » Wed May 06, 2020 6:41 am

About make assassin a map editor unit and lets make a new assassin with New usage. Techs maybe?
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Re: assassin rework

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 am

About buildings, Endru:

In AoF i and Alex are planning to major overhaul of alll builings - Much more tough (~100 hp at base for factories, even more hp for fortifications and megas) but at the same time much more costly in terms of construction.
Infantry anti-building units will keep their bonuses to buildings (maybe exept to megas which would become "fortification" category, we are thinking about this for now) but they won't be able to one-shot any factory or wall anymore thus increasing value of siege units.

Another idea is that we want in AoF to divide assasin into 2 units: Actual Assasin who will one-shot at cost of life units but can't kill buildings (only purpose) and Saboteur who willbe able to kill (or maybe at leaks lowering hp by half of building?) and do other things like stealing techs, sabotaging production and spying into carriers.

Saboteur can be more costly or can not by himself kill building but will require efforts of 2+ saboteurs. And this one can require tech.

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Re: assassin rework

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed May 06, 2020 12:55 pm

after some thoughts here is my idea for assasin and saboteur:
1. Assasin:
Cost - 3 turns, trainable at tc and castle
Hp - 8, can be stepped on
Attack - 1
Range - 3
Armor - 0/0
Speed - 3 (1 on mountains)
Sight - 5
Spell resist - 100% (immune to convert)

Abilities:
Permanently invisible
Can see invisible units
Assasinate - ability to one shot any non-building-based unit at cost of own life, range 1
Poison Weapon (passive)
Can look into carriers and assasinate targeted unit in them

MUST NOT die after attack but after usage of ability.

Looses abilities to saboteur buildings (disrupting production, stealing techs).

2. Saboteur:
Cost - 4 turns, trainable at Siege workshop amd castle
Hp - 9, can be stepped on
Attack - 1
Range - 1
Armor - 0/0
Speed - 3
Sight - 5
Spell resist - 100% (immune to convert)

Abilities:
Permanently invisible
CAN'T detect enemy invisible units
Climb - for 1 turn gains speed 2 on mountains and ability to pass through units/buildings (SpecUnitAction CAN_GO_TRU_ENEMY_OBJECTS), has 3 turns cooldown and costs 1 action (so you can't use this ability and at the same turn sabotage building), researchable (in castle for 4 turns);
Demolish - kills 50% of building's max hp at cost of saboteur's life, is unlocked when "gunpowder" tech is researched;
Can look into carriers;
Can steal techs and disrupt production in buildings in melee range, must not die from that;
Sabotage - target building is stopped producing and can't attack/see/detect units, melee range, 3 turns lasts, 2 turns cooldown, does not kill saboteur. Effect must be similar to AoF "Curse" and must be undispellable (you can only wait until it ends).

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Re: assassin rework

Post by Endru1241 » Wed May 06, 2020 1:31 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:09 am
About buildings, Endru:

In AoF i and Alex are planning to major overhaul of alll builings - Much more tough (~100 hp at base for factories, even more hp for fortifications and megas) but at the same time much more costly in terms of construction.
Infantry anti-building units will keep their bonuses to buildings (maybe exept to megas which would become "fortification" category, we are thinking about this for now) but they won't be able to one-shot any factory or wall anymore thus increasing value of siege units.
My opinion - would be good idea if in the same time anti-building infantry would have increased p.armor, e.g. by ability/transformation - something like over head shields. Of course - they could also lose category making them weak to archers, and it should be at the expense of lowered melee ability and speed - maybe +3-4 p.armor, speed to 1, -2-3 power, but + damage vs buildings to make it even (on the start, blacksmith would make them even better).
I don't know about AoF balance, but in AoS medium infantry is still on tight position in balance. Taking the ability to deal with buildings nerfs them, while making siege stronger. That's not good.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 12:55 pm
after some thoughts here is my idea for assasin and saboteur:
1. Assasin:
Cost - 3 turns, trainable at tc and castle
Hp - 8, can be stepped on
Attack - 1
Range - 3
Armor - 0/0
Speed - 3 (1 on mountains)
Sight - 5
Spell resist - 100% (immune to convert)

Abilities:
Permanently invisible
Can see invisible units
Assasinate - ability to one shot any non-building-based unit at cost of own life, range 1
Poison Weapon (passive)
Can look into carriers and assasinate targeted unit in them

MUST NOT die after attack but after usage of ability.

Looses abilities to saboteur buildings (disrupting production, stealing techs).

2. Saboteur:
Cost - 4 turns, trainable at Siege workshop amd castle
Hp - 9, can be stepped on
Attack - 1
Range - 1
Armor - 0/0
Speed - 3
Sight - 5
Spell resist - 100% (immune to convert)

Abilities:
Permanently invisible
CAN'T detect enemy invisible units
Climb - for 1 turn gains speed 2 on mountains and ability to pass through units/buildings (SpecUnitAction CAN_GO_TRU_ENEMY_OBJECTS), has 3 turns cooldown and costs 1 action (so you can't use this ability and at the same turn sabotage building), researchable (in castle for 4 turns);
Demolish - kills 50% of building's max hp at cost of saboteur's life, is unlocked when "gunpowder" tech is researched;
Can look into carriers;
Can steal techs and disrupt production in buildings in melee range, must not die from that;
Sabotage - target building is stopped producing and can't attack/see/detect units, melee range, 3 turns lasts, 2 turns cooldown, does not kill saboteur. Effect must be similar to AoF "Curse" and must be undispellable (you can only wait until it ends).
I was thinking of something similar, but with little differences.
Saboteur doesn't completely fit stealing tech. Not any more than assasin at least. I would either give it to both of them or none.

There is also another idea for assasin - no cost change, but instead of instant kill, damage ability with 2-6 cooldown and self-transformation to non-stealth version, which has the same stats, but only one ability - transform back. That is almost the same as self-sacrifice, as exposed assasin is dead one, but allows to use such unit more times if usage was carefully planned.
Saboteur could have the same, because if it took 2x4 turn units and only after gunpowder to destroy a tower, then saboteur self-kill would be useless.
Of course then damage could be lowered (but still - if it could take 50% hp of a castle, then it could surely destroy one factory).

Thinking of abilities - assassin should also have ability to turn off the attack of building for a few turns (e.g. by killing few skilled shooters) or at least severely lower the capabilities.

And yet another one - applicable to all stealth units - fast escape - 1 range teleport ability. That would make spying much more viable.
It could also have some ability to apply poison without attacking and exposing himself (long cooldown poison and escape?)

Introducing it wouldn't make them OP (I think), but significantly increased cost effectiveness of stealth tactics and make pure worker force at the back of the base exposed.
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makazuwr32
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Re: assassin rework

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed May 06, 2020 4:34 pm

Siege units in AoF are much weaker than in AoS and thus most of time their only usage is being used as anti-building units.

Also anti-building infantry will not loose its bonuses in this case, just it will require more time to deal with buildings than it needs right now.

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Squirrel5555
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Squirrel5555 » Wed May 06, 2020 4:48 pm

lol might have to switch to AoF, sounds like melee engagements actually get to play out there :P

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Endru1241
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Re: assassin rework

Post by Endru1241 » Wed May 06, 2020 10:24 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 4:34 pm
Siege units in AoF are much weaker than in AoS and thus most of time their only usage is being used as anti-building units.

Also anti-building infantry will not loose its bonuses in this case, just it will require more time to deal with buildings than it needs right now.
And giving them more time is exactly what my idea is about.
Squirrel5555 wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 4:48 pm
lol might have to switch to AoF, sounds like melee engagements actually get to play out there :P
Mayyybe as orcs. Human swordsman is useless - they have pretty much the same stats, as in AoS, but there is greater scale of damage in AoF - units longer to train are exponentialy stronger.
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