Underused Units

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.

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Squirrel5555
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Underused Units

Post by Squirrel5555 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:30 pm

Some upgradeable units that seem unused:
Men at arms
Never seen a chariot used :lol: this also goes for chariot archers also
Horse archers
Voulgier
Ive seen skirmishers and axe throwers used but not as commonly as other ranged units

Idk i thought we could have discussions about some of these units :D and balance in general

On the other hand i made a map where i lined up all the upgradeable units in the game by cost and they all fit with one another very nicely art wise so good job friends :D

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DreJaDe
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Re: Underused Units

Post by DreJaDe » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:30 pm

Men at arm's is used, believe me. Horse Archer also.

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Squirrel5555
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Squirrel5555 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:51 pm

I can see man at arms being used, his has good stats for 2 turnunit, but horse archer :o
Well, fair enough :D

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Alpha
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Alpha » Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:33 am

Men at arms and horse archers are used a great ton, especially back in the day.
In the short term not so when upgrading but once you get to that mark they are extremely effective and replace practically many units you can unlock.
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Squirrel5555
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Squirrel5555 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:58 am

Sorry, i phrased my question incorrectly, my bad :?
I meant i personally dont see the application of some of these units, so i was wondering if some more experienced players could inform me on which situations they are effective for them

Thanks :D

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Alpha
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Alpha » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:18 am

Men at Arms are effective as general purpose infantry, they can made quickly with its 2 turns compared to other infantry. They also render other infantry obsolete.

Chariot is a alternative to knights and other cavalry, they are alright to use early to midgame but can be easily replaced by upgraded knights near to mid to late game.

Chariot Archer same applies for this like its melee counterpart, can be replaced by horse archers and its upgraded variant.

Horse archers can be used for quick attack tactics and mobile ranged infantry, its alright to use and great to use throughout the game.

Voulgier can be used as a general purpose melee fighter and alright to use against infantry and horses (I think I dont remember too much), a better spearmen essentially

Skrimisher are good to use throughout the game as anti ranged fighters, its upgraded variant can also be somewhat effective against other infantry with its javelins but its safer to use swordsman/Broadswordsman/Men at Arms.

Axe Thrower is a alright early game ranged fighter, although its dwarfed by archers and other ranged infantry.
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Endru1241
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:19 am

I can give some theory and facts:

Men-at-arms are great base - they deal really good damage for a cost and are devastating buildings and siege machines.
They are however limited by archer and cavalry weakness.

Chariot was supposed to get new life after spacious chariot research and wheel blades.
Wheel Blades is not super powerful (5 damage, +2 vs foot units), but damages all adjacent units, and is safe damage - doesn't provoke counter.
Spacious chariot allows chariots and chariot archers to have 1 carry space (and 100% conversion resistance) for foot unit (aside from workers and healers).
I suppose forest movement restriction can be pretty limiting, maybe that's the reason of little use, maybe researches are too hard to get.

Horse archers are mostly used for speed. They are more resilient, than regular ones (apart of anti-cav weakness). But they are not really optimal, when counting ranged damage/cost. Their use was also little nerfed lately, when they got -1 speed on forest.
But I am doing 3rd upgrade boosting their defence (and +1 power) to make things a little more balanced.

Voulgiers have solid stats. They should be quite good on being more resilient anti-cavalry units. They have archer weakness though. Maybe their lack of really strong specialisation (they have spearman damage vs cavalry, while costing twice as much) is limiting their use too?

Skirmishers and axe throwers were never meant to be as common as other ranged units.
Skirmishers are used as anti-archer and after recent speed and sight boost - for skirmishing. But if they would made the bulk of the army - than would mean being too strong.
Axe throwers are one of the very few units trainable in barracks with any ranged capability. They also retain bonuses vs buildings, so they can be used to maximize building damage, especially on hard terrain (they don't have to be adjacent).
They are also great for dealing with escaping skirmishers. On the very start they also have better damage, than archers, while costing the same.
When one builds the nordic hall however - axe throwers are getting upgrade and research (research can also be made in blacksmith) getting to 8 damage, 5 range - still with the same swordsman bonuses vs buildings and melee type damage. Damage is further boosted to 10 by sword mastery, so it's could also be used along melee units without the need to research archery.

As my information is mostly based on pure stats and single player experience, it doesn't necessarily applies to multiplayer.
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Squirrel5555
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Squirrel5555 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:31 am

Thanks :D great feedback

It depends on the situation but i barely ever build melee sword infantry. If I do it is usually foot knight or if i have enough trebs already i switch my castles to teuton knight( they have similar stats to base level foot knight but have cost of 3). Man at arms is too squishy to arrows for me :D Instead i build halberds while others do the job of melee sword

Ahh i didnt know chariot had these upgrades, sounds a lot better with them, thanks xd Though there is quite a lot of research to do before chariot seems worth it, though i cant say for certain as i haven't tried it

For range id rather build master slingers and get both range unit upgrades from blacksmith, then put them in a caravan, or first in ram then the ram into caravan :) lots of mobility and slingers are really powerful mid range shooters, and rams allow them to get up close. i guess ill try horse archers though, thanks

Units like voulgier i avoid, id rather have halberds which do better against cav and cost much less(need to research upgrades but i still think its better) also it has reach tech (i dont know, maybe voulgier is also effected by reach?). Because units that arent specialised are usually weaker in both worlds, so id rather have strongest anti cav and my siege and slings can take care of infantry :D

For skirms and axe throwers it is good they arent too used, just have special situations

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makazuwr32
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Re: Underused Units

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:13 am

Chariots by the way also only cav units who have bonus to buildings. And when upgraded they get both knight's bonuses against infantries and keep their anti-building bonuses.

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Re: Underused Units

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:39 pm

Nice one Endru, useful info there. Is there anywhere on these pages with that level of detail for everything?

Hi Squirrel, reach works for voulgier and pike men too. (I think - I've only just unlocked pikeman, and still playing around with voulgier / swardstaff to decide if I like them or not.

As far as I'm concerned, where men at arms really come into their own is if you make a quick, surprise land grab on your enemies starting point via some devious route or strategic trickery. Normally , the body of their army will be elsewhere, at the borders, and the start point will probably have a lot of buildings and a few workers. Getting a 2 turn unit that is deadly to factory buildings can be all you need to wreak havoc on their infrastructure
I also play an RTS game called Life 8-)

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Squirrel5555
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Squirrel5555 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:52 pm

You would know about devious routes and strategic trickery, Phoenix, wouldnt you :D
All jokes aside, thanks for the info guys

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Re: Underused Units

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:48 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:13 am
Chariots by the way also only cav units who have bonus to buildings. And when upgraded they get both knight's bonuses against infantries and keep their anti-building bonuses.
Well - just to be very specific - there is also axe knight - it get's +75% on buildings, +150% on fortifications and +500% on megas.
Also - raider - +100%,+200% and +700% with burning effect at that!
phoenixffyrnig wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:39 pm
Is there anywhere on these pages with that level of detail for everything?
Most info can be known by looking through Others/Help/Units in the app. There is some basic information on help overview - I tried to update it some time ago, but I'm not sure it's OK.
The most lacking is weapon effects, but abilities got some info on them (click on them!)
We were working with stratego on making those detail screens better, but I got much less time since then and it all kinda stuck on different levels of accomplishment.
Maybe I'll get to it eventually, but lately I'm not even going with the updates according to my plans.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Underused Units

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:55 pm

Oh. Axe knights in my time of playing into aos had no bonuses at all and were just a waste of time.

Chariots alas have upgrade form, can get a carry capacity and can act as anti-building AND as anti-infantry when upgraded. Two others do not have that variety of uses.

Maybe i should return to aos some time and try all new things. I did not play into aos for quite a long time.

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Re: Underused Units

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:42 pm

Squirrel5555 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:52 pm
You would know about devious routes and strategic trickery, Phoenix, wouldnt you :D
:roll: might have learnt a trick or two ;)

Yes Mak, come back! Things seem fairly lively at the minute, plenty of fun to be had. I've only had the game for about 5 months, but already so much new stuff to play with. Hope you got a pocketful of gems for them!
I also play an RTS game called Life 8-)

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Re: Underused Units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:26 am

That is the problem — i have 0 gems left for buying things.

The reason why i dropped AoS around 2 years ago is that all sides have access to everything and you do not know what specifically to expect from enemy at the start of the game. I can't plan my moves well right from the start in such situation.
AoF is a bit easier because at least you know who is your opponent and what opportunities he has as well as your own weaknesses and strengths and because you can plan your moves right from the very first turn.

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Re: Underused Units

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:33 am

it made me a thought of a new ability for spies: spying for the enemy owned upgardes. what do u think?

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Re: Underused Units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:07 am

Hm? Upgrades player researched or those which he bought you mean, stratego?

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Re: Underused Units

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:10 am

good idea! i though of its "upgrades bought" but the already invented ones in game are good too!

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Squirrel5555
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Re: Underused Units

Post by Squirrel5555 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:17 am

Scouting my friend :D
Before, build mainly builders

Alternatively, go for a combo of units that will do decently against most things, then once you know whats going on, start countering it
Here you can also plan from the very first turn

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SirPat
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Re: Underused Units

Post by SirPat » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:37 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:19 am
Horse archers are mostly used for speed. They are more resilient, than regular ones (apart of anti-cav weakness). But they are not really optimal, when counting ranged damage/cost. Their use was also little nerfed lately, when they got -1 speed on forest.
But I am doing 3rd upgrade boosting their defence (and +1 power) to make things a little more balanced.
Speaking of Horse archer
Have anyone of you used skirmisher horsemen these guys are monsters when they have all blacksmith upgrades plus+ they have 6 speed and bonus to cavalry thanks too skirmisher rework, the only problem is there pierce armor they start at four pierce armor which means:
Heavy horse archer
Atk 6 -> 8w/Smith upgrades
Health 28

Skirmisher horseman
Atk 5 -> 7 w/smith upg
Health 20
P.armor 4 -> 6w/smith upg

So in a 1v1 the max heavy horse archer would deal 2dmg to the skirmisher horseman wich is not that bad but if a 3rd upgrade lvl for the horse archer came the it would deal 3dmg thats not normal for and unbalanced so i propose an upgrade to the skirmisher horseman if the heavy horse archer gets an upgrade. Just like what happened to the arbalest and the master skirmisher

The arbalest got added, too powerful against low health elite skirmishers so they added a master skirmisher to keep the balance

But as of now Skirmisher horsemen are deadly I was playing a 2v2 game with my brother on the map land of gnolfolk(Love It :D ) even though they get -1 speed because of the forest tiles they can still chase down horse archers and mongolian horse archers because of its 6 speed


Additionaly here's some tips too use skirmisher horse men.
make them run alot and don't make them stick together, skirmisher horsemen should always have space in between them too increase mobility and chance of escape incase of Hussars or catapults as much as possible cover as much space as you can to increase efectiveness.
These don't really get used alot so yeah.

Thats all thnx
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Re: Underused Units

Post by godOfKings » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:21 am

Where horse archer deals 3 damage, skirmisher horseman deals 14 damage
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Re: Underused Units

Post by SirPat » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:14 pm

I was more thinking of what if he gets left out

Even though 3 dmg ain't that big thats like 7 hits to kill Skirm-Horseman and archers aren't alone they always have support and by the time that the lvl3 horse archer gets implemented based on its upgrade pattern it will have 30 hp by then which is a 3 shot kill for the skirm-horseman maybe just add a skirmisher horseman upgrade with +2/3 hp +1 p.armor and maybe +1 range and +1 power
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