area damage of ballista IMPLEMENTED

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.
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makazuwr32
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:38 am

Detros wrote:I would be for nerfing ballista to 2x 12/6/3 (same 100%/50%/25% of full damage). Or at least to 2x 12/8/4 or so.
Same needed for heavy ballistas because they do 15/12/10 damage. I think that they need 15/10/5 at least.
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Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
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Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
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Belfry777
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by Belfry777 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:51 pm

Do remember that heavy ballista's can move more than one tile.
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

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godOfKings
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fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by godOfKings » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:56 am

i think fire archers and melee mounted units should have more bonus against ballista

fire archers gain 100% bonus so
wen 5 atk ballista gets 8 damage with one turn left to b repaired by worker before being burned to crisp
wen 6 atk ballista gets 10 damage
wen 7 atk ballista gets 12 damage
(heavy ballista gets 1 damage less because of 7 pierce armour)

knights gets 50% bonus dealing 15 damage to ballista and 14 to heavy ballista
heavy knight deals 17 damage to heavy ballista
light cavalry has 120% bonus dealing 11 damage to ballista
elite light cavalry has 140% bonus dealing about 15 or 14 damage to ballista
hussars deal about 18 damage (50% bonus) and hungarian hussar deals 14 damage (100% bonus)

also heavy ballista dont need 2 speed since wagons can provide enough mobility

since ballista can deal so much area damage in general, they should have more counters that can destroy them easily too, especially a ballista in a tower is hard to destroy (i find it easier to use a battering ram to capture towns instead of focusing on the tower, since obviously the player would target other units that are within range)
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COOLguy
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by COOLguy » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:40 pm

I think the ballista/upgrade might be a touch OP. I think its low cost (and lack of tech requirement) makes it easy to spam. It can shred up knights pretty easy and I would think that knights and catapults would be its destruction.

- Should it require ballistics? (its kinda in the name lol)
- should the cost go up?
- is the 2 speed of heavy ballista OP?
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:47 pm

Not these things but their high splash damage make both ballista units op in my opinion.
Either increase their cost or lower splash damage because as now normal ballista deals 12/10/8x2 (100%/83%/67%) damage and heavy one deals 15/12/10x2 (100%/80%/67%) damage while catapult normal deals 33/16/8 damage and heavy one deals 39/19/9 damage (100%/50%/25%)

If you will lower damage (splash one, not basic) of both ballista units to the at least 12/8/4 and 15/10/5 (100%/67%/33%) this would be well balanced.

If you will remove 1 speed than players just will use wagons for it.
If you will make so it'll require ballistics than these will no one use because of high cost.

So as i see there is 2 variants: increase cost by 1-2 turns or decrease splash damage.
Also you can additionally increase research cost by 2-4 turns.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Belfry777
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by Belfry777 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:17 pm

I am in favor of the need to research ballistics tech to build the ballista because of it's low build time it would need a tech to keep balance.
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

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godOfKings
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fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by godOfKings » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:07 am

I suggest increasing bonus of fire archers and melee horses against ballista and heavy ballista

Fire archers gain 100% bonus

Knights and heavy knights gain 50% bonus

Light cavalry 120% bonus amd elite light cavalry 140% bonus
Hussar 50% bonus and hungarian hussar 100% bonus

Lancers and heavy lancers 50% bonus, also heavy ballista should have 1 speed since wagons can provide enough mobility
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by godOfKings » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:10 am

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5205
I would go for cheap high damage dealing ballista that can also b destroyed easily, but i do support makuzwars splash damage suggestion
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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godOfKings
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by godOfKings » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:12 am

As long as ballista is easy to destroy, dealing high damage is not a problem
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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makazuwr32
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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:58 pm

I don't think that ballistas need SUCH nerf.
would be enough only lower their splash damage and maybe increase their cost by 1-2 turns.
Because with your stats they'll become again under-used or even never-used units.
I think that instead of nerfing so much ballistas we need to increase their cost and lower damage (splash only). Maybe also require ballistics.

Because for now they are good counters to Roman Legioners with Centurion and their Legion formation ability.
Catapults are too costly.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:11 pm

Much better than THIS
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

Stratego (dev)
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Re: version v1.058

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:18 pm

talk to coolguy about it.
the only thing i dont want to make it dependant to ballistics

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makazuwr32
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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:24 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:07 pm

good! tehy ahve bonus against siege unsit -shall we put ballista into siege? (in AOE it was siege type as i remembered)

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makazuwr32
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Re: fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:18 pm

Sure we can.
but without too much bonuses to buildings from them.
this thing only will decrease effectiveness of ballistas uses.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Belfry777
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Re: area damage of ballista

Post by Belfry777 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:51 pm

That might be a good idea, less armor!
A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

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godOfKings
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Re: fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by godOfKings » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:59 pm

BTW this suggestion is for current stats of ballista, if ballista is nerfed then bonus might b over kill
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools

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COOLguy
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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:36 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gb7qj5jh3yk46 ... 4.mp4?dl=0

Ballistas need nerfing
- we don't want to make them dependent on ballistics (like AoE)
- raising the cost makes them too expensive (you said catapults are too expensive)
- And they are grossly OP

(see the video 20x heavy knights and 20x knights vs. 3x ballista and 3x heavy ballista - 86 turn builds vs. ~36 turn builds. And aren't knights supposed to be good against these ballistas?)
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:36 pm

Right.
Especially if they'll be nerfed as suggested stratego. That would be overkill for this unit in total as something useful and they'll become something like Chariot archers/Rangers/Axe Knights/Maori warriors - completly useless for their cost because of many more useful units and underpowered these units.

even Light cavalry upgrade and Axemen are more useful.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: fire archers and horses versus ballista

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:48 pm

Please stop multiposting topics for the same balance issues.

Merged
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:49 pm

I don't think that catapults are expensive. They are fine for their cost - only i think that they as well as all other land siege ranged units need 2 modes - moving and firing. This is also applied to ballistas as well: if we'll realise this (via transform ability) than ballista will have only one shot after it moved and while it is in firing more it can't move at all. And also ban all siege from wagons - instead we can give them in moving mode speed of 3.

I suggest first to lower their splash damage to similar stats of Catapults and second to make them more vurable to cavalry/fire archers.
Because as for this moment no unit has any bonuses to them.
Also additionally we can increase cost for upgrade to the Heavy Ballista.

IF this wouldn't be enough than we can alvays in dev version to nerf their stats.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:56 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:Catapults are too costly.
Watch the video I shared. They cannot be made "more vulnerable" to knights because they can murder any knight before it comes into attack range. In fact it can murder SEVERAL knights. Heavy knights already one shot ballista. It only takes two knights to kill a ballista. But they all die before they can attack because the ballista is OP
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:00 pm

IF you will make so that ballista can EITHER move OR shoot mode they won't be so op. Especially if they will also be banned from wagons. You can't get fast enough with speed of wagons in this case them to the front undetected and make surprise attack. And after moving and unpacking ballistas will have only 1 shot.
Here is this suggestion
Just try other variants and after nerf stats.
Also if we will add these bonuses versus ballistas to fire archers and cavalry than they'll become really good counter to it. Just use not a knights but Hussars with speed of 6 or fire archers with 2 archery upgrades (they'll outrange current heavy ballistas)

And last thing - Never-ever if you know that your enemy is using catapults/ballistas move your units in such a dence order.
This is called strategy.
But still i think that upgrade to heavy ballistas must cost more than 4 turns. Knights to Heavy Knights, Archers to Crossbowmen, Swordman to Broad Swordman and Horse archer to Heavy Horse archer cost 6 turns (and some of them get less than ballista from upgrade)
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: version v1.058

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:16 pm

Coolguy: sorry to urge but i have to publish soon - in this weekend, otherwise many games get unbalanced. so please try to finalize stats. i believe the one i suggested is uos, so everyone can try (who have dev version)

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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:18 pm

The dense order just underscored how OP the ballista was. I also attacked with several other units and groupings. If you attack in spread out formation the ballista can still win just because it can wipe out the incoming knights. Hussars were decent but more costly. Fire archers too as long as there was no hope of repair (just let the ballista burn and lose the fire archer for sure).

Good points though.
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:24 pm

For now we can just add for fire archers for example 100-150% bonus versus Ballistas to counter them so that they'll damage them so heavy from one shot that they'll burn to the crisp after burning ballista's owner turn will begin.
And if heavy ballista will have after 1-2 hp than i think it is fair.

Still think that Heavy ballista upgrade needs higher cost to research.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:25 pm

I've been testing.

Things to do to kill the ballista (after nerf assuming a 3 ballista or heavy ballista army and corresponding build turns)
If attacking:
- spread out formation of knights or heavy knights
- fire archers (providing the ballista will burn)
- spread out formation of hussars
- wagon o' knights (or hussars etc)
- catapult or trebuchet
- ornithopter
If defending:
- skirmishers or defenders or spartans (anti arrow with greater move speed)
- catapult or treb
- spread of heavy knights
Thanks!
Josh

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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:27 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:For now we can just add for fire archers for example 100-150% bonus versus Ballistas to counter them so that they'll damage them so heavy from one shot that they'll burn to the crisp after burning ballista's owner turn will begin.
And if heavy ballista will have after 1-2 hp than i think it is fair.

Still think that Heavy ballista upgrade needs higher cost to research.
Do you know the old stats/ effect that they had?
We didn't change much, just lower the attack power by a couple and the radius of damage. I think ticked the armor down by one
Thanks!
Josh

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makazuwr32
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Re: version v1.058

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:37 pm

I know and i can give current ones with current splash damage values.
Normal ballista:
Cost 4 turns
hp 12 (lowered by 4 hp, even swordman can kill it now, why?)
2 actions/turn
damage 12 (lowered to 10)
Splash formula is 12/10/8 or 100%/83%/67% (catapult has 33/16/8 or 100%/50%/25%) (if same formula is used in nerfed version thansplash damage in nerfed version is 10/8/7 or 10/8/6)
range is same - 5.
speed 1 (same)
piercing armor 6 (lowered to 4)

Tip:
2 Genoese crossbowmen can kill it for sure and survive 1 ballista (current one). With new stats they can one-shot them with their 12 damage and 6 range. 3 turns to build even in TC.

Heavy ballista:
Upgrade cost is 4 turns (i suggest if we will keep current stats and won't nerf them than increase it to 6 or 7 turns)

Cost same - 4 turns
Hp 18 (lowered by 6 to 12 hp)
2 actions/turn
damage 15 (lowered to 12 by 3 points)
Splash formula is 15/12/10 or 100%/80%/67% (heavy catapult has 39/19/9 or 100%/50%/25%) (if same formula is used in nerfed version thansplash damage in nerfed version is 12/10/8)
Range 6 (lowered to 5)
Armor/Piercing armor 1/7 (lowered to 0/5)
Speed 2
(you want to make heavy ballista as normal one right now)

I suggest to lower their splash damage to 100%/66%/33% formula for both variants of ballistas or to 12/8/4 for normal and to 15/10/5 for heavy.
This would decrease their power MORE than your nerf but still will keep them as good unit.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
Please when you ask to change something argument why do you want that change. ...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on. Some real info why it must be done.
© by Makazuwr32™.

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COOLguy
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Re: version v1.058

Post by COOLguy » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:45 pm

Genoese xbow cost 4.

So it should be 2 ballista vs 2 xbow

still testing
Thanks!
Josh

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