chariots vs archer

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lordtalamar
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chariots vs archer

Post by lordtalamar » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:40 am

If light calvery can take out archer 1 hit shouldn't chariot be able to also?

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RiverRaider 1097
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by RiverRaider 1097 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:59 am

Agree totally, and then some )
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Darkknight
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Darkknight » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:15 am

But a chariot is like a mounted swordmen. A swordmen cannot kill a archer in 1 attack.

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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:41 pm

yes, i dont think either it should, it is not "as" mounted as a knight.

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:56 pm

Ah yes, that makes sense.
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Josh

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RiverRaider 1097
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by RiverRaider 1097 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:17 pm

I respectfully disagree, if a bowman had a swordsman on a moving platform coming at him at high speed with a crushing downswing blow to the head,neck or shoulder area it ought to kill him, a foot swordsman should be able to kill a bowman face to face I might add,'thought I would sneak that in this thread' sorry Dan )
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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:56 pm

Yes, but then I might add that one arrow should be able to down most units. Quite obviously, in the game, that doesn't happen. :)
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Josh

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ejm29
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by ejm29 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:18 am

I don't think chariots should be able to kill archers in one attack, as chariots are not as nimble as knight's, so archers should be able to dodge them most of the time. Among other reasons. :)

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RiverRaider 1097
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by RiverRaider 1097 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:32 am

But how is it far to the swordsman to go through hails of arrows just to finally get to use your weapon once and not kill nothing? )
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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:27 am

Yes, that is my point: using the logic that a real chariot could kill a real archer with one attack follows that one could kill a chariot with one attack by the archer. The goal is not necessarily strict realism in this case, but rather in-game balance of units.
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Josh

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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by RiverRaider 1097 » Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:07 am

Game balance of units, I just had a get it got it good moment thanks! COOLguy ) really! thanks )
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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:10 am

:) ok
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Dgkfadomo777 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:06 am

1st chariots were slow and fragile maybe there should be a more tank like , and powerful chariot called advanced chariot

lordtalamar
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by lordtalamar » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:45 am

I didn't compare the chariot to the knight but light calvery man a dude on a horse with no saddle and a knife and higher speed should not do more damage to archer than a man I a chariot plus the chariot acts as a coverage vs the archer (Ever play dungeons and dragons. Cover is a big part of that game as any DM can tell you it brings realism to the game.)
A either light calvery is over powered (TRUE imo) or
B chariot is underpowered.
The lower speed plus low damage caused by chariots is unbalanced in my opinion. Only Chariots and Shielders seem any where near unbalanced the only true bonus chariots have on the other mounted troops is they can ride in a battle ram. That is small a very small bonus which isn't often used.

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:39 pm

The Chariot and the Light Cavalry are the same cost, but completely different usage and "development" if you will. A Chariot is like a cross between a Swordsman and a Knight. It is basically like a more mobile infantry unit. A Light Cavalry is a specialized Knight.

The Chariot and Light Cavalry are both balanced, for one reason the Chariot is much stronger and "tougher". The Chariot has a much higher hp and spell resistance and attack power.

To say that a Chariot should be able to destroy an Archer in one attack because a Light Cavalry can is absurd in my opinion, because this is one of the areas of specialization for the Light Cavalry. It is like arguing for the Swordsman to be able to be more effective against mounted units, because the Pikeman is.

Personally, I do not use the Chariot much, yet I also do not use the popular (for reasons I can't imagine) Ornithopter or Missionary units. It is just not my style, but I don't advocate changing their stats so they are.

I see it like this: Yes the Chariot cannot destroy an Archer in one turn, but the Light Cavalry can be mown down with three Archers (not to mention one Pikeman can kill a HORDE of Light Cavalry!). So yeah, let's give the Chariot a bonus against the Archer, and up the hp, spell resistance, and attack of the Light Cavalry. Better yet, let's just make all the units have the same stats! ;) The point is not stat equality, but stat balance.
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lordtalamar
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by lordtalamar » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:14 pm

Ahh that make since cool guy but then by that logic pike men should not destroy chariots. As mobile swordsmen pikes shouldn't have the bonus against them . We all know chariots are unbalanced in some way or more people would use them. Maybe removing only the pikemens bonus would fix the unbalance feeling of the chariots. Ask many that have played me and you will know that I bust them out more than most. But chariot archers are almost always more effective in their role than chariots are in their's.

lordtalamar
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by lordtalamar » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:15 pm

Ps maybe even give archers bonus vs them then...

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:40 pm

I don't know about that change... maybe. :)

Yeah, people don't use chariots very much. But it might not be because they are underpowered. It may just be that as a hybrid unit, the chariot doesn't see much show time. Other "hybrid" units that I haven't seen people use much are Roman Legionaires, and Axe-throwers. But these are also sometimes the best units to put in campaign maps (since the AI is too stupid to use the specialized units very well ;) ).

It's also really annoying when the AI produces a Shielder or Battering Ram: at just the right time to cost me 10 extra turns! :)
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Josh

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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Darkknight » Sun Jul 19, 2015 1:58 am

A chariot is already strong. It can easily kill archers already so i dont think it needs a bonus against archers

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RiverRaider 1097
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by RiverRaider 1097 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:41 am

You know COOLguy has the strongest point,the scout was implemented to be a archer killer among other things, I remember the game before he was introduced he has really made a difference as all the units and some of there capabilities I guess what I'm trying to say is all the units have been refined to where they are meshing pretty well ).Specialized units are thought up because of need not brawn I stand corrected!
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Darkknight » Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:27 pm

Chariots are already a strong unit. I played a random map and only made chariots (and a very little amount of workers) and they won the AI easily. A group of chariots can win almost any unit and a single chariot is stronger than most units and they are also very good at destroying buildings so if they have bonus against archers also they will be too strong.

Archers should have some bonus against chariots because chariots are like mounted swordmen.

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:09 pm

Thank you, RiverRaider 1097! :)
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Josh

lordtalamar
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by lordtalamar » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:23 pm

I disagree chariot can solo vs most any unit. Small list of units that smash chariots. Knight, Lancer, Spearman, samurai, chariot and horse archer(if they have room to run), hoplite, elephant and elephant archer, orthnihopter any upgraded broadsword or better. and he barely sweats the win by the light calvery if he hits first which is rare due to speed difference. Sure he can beat up a building pretty good but his slightly low pierce armor makes him hurting vs towers counter attacks by the time it is destroyed.
From a historical point of view he who had the most chariots ruled the battle field. Your men were tired from marching, mine were not, your horsemen couldn't deliver as hard of hits or carry as much heavy armor when directly mounted on the horse compared to pulled by the horse. Without stirrups men were not as effective fighting force as opposed to the stable platform the chariot provided.when you were a rag tag foot soldier army and saw the chariots coming in you ran for the hills. Sorry this was so long but I love to ramble on about history. Of course this is just a game in the end and the best one I have played in years I might add so he doesn't need to change I was just giving my thoughts as the developer has kindly allowed us to do.

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:12 pm

Romans, Persians, Mongols, Carthaginians, Spartans, Arabians, Hungarians, Franks...

Were these known first and foremost for their mighty chariots? :)

On your list, it is interesting that the units that can "smash" the Chariot either cost more than (or are equal to) the Chariot, or are specifically intended to kill the chariot. The Samurai is the only exception, and not really a glaring one.
However, Chariots (like every other unit in the game) are not intended to be Lone Rangers or hordes, but a supplement to your army as a whole, or whatever tailored force you devise for your need.
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Josh

lordtalamar
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by lordtalamar » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:38 pm

I just ran some unit vs unit battles I have noticed the Hungarian hussar accually needs a 50% bonus vs him and maybe normal hussar also. They seem pretty hurt by him for turn cost relationship. Shielders give him an amazing battle so maybe he needs slight 20% bonus vs them now they are 2 turns. Straight battle vs light calvery he dominates as should be while 2 chariots with jump on 1 chariot 1 samurai combo kills if chariots hit first but samurai chariot can win if they hit first. Takes 7 normal archer hits to kill him. 4 from a chariot archer. So to sum it all up maybe the other mounted melee units should have a bonus vs him except for light calvery while taking away pikemens bonus vs him and add plus 1 pierce but give archer units bonus vs him but not ships and towers. Or just leave him alone but have fun debate.

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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:44 pm

I vote option 2. ;)

Wow those are impressive tests. :) He actually sounds like a pretty good unit. But I still won't use him any more than I do already. :)
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Darkknight » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:15 am

COOLguy wrote:I vote option 2. ;)

Wow those are impressive tests. :) He actually sounds like a pretty good unit. But I still won't use him any more than I do already. :)
What is option 2?

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:15 pm

lordtalamar wrote: Or just leave him alone but have fun debate.
:lol: ;)
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Josh

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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:21 pm

huh, any results here?

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COOLguy
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Re: chariots vs archer

Post by COOLguy » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:48 pm

I think he is balanced because this:
lordtalamar wrote:I just ran some unit vs unit battles I have noticed the Hungarian hussar accually needs a 50% bonus vs him and maybe normal hussar also. They seem pretty hurt by him for turn cost relationship. Shielders give him an amazing battle so maybe he needs slight 20% bonus vs them now they are 2 turns. Straight battle vs light calvery he dominates as should be while 2 chariots with jump on 1 chariot 1 samurai combo kills if chariots hit first but samurai chariot can win if they hit first. Takes 7 normal archer hits to kill him. 4 from a chariot archer. So to sum it all up maybe the other mounted melee units should have a bonus vs him except for light calvery while taking away pikemens bonus vs him and add plus 1 pierce but give archer units bonus vs him but not ships and towers.
Mostly seems confusing, and doesn't change him (like add armor but make it up with bonuses vs him?)
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Josh

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