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counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:27 pm
by Alexander82
Counterattack is a powerful feature on the right units

When attacking in melee (1) range powerful creatures like giants, dragons and cavalry it has to be taken into account.

The real problem is not a single counter but the fact that any single attack triggers one.

I think that is a bit awkward for a unit to make more counters than the attack it does. A heavy hitter but also a knight that relies on his mounts shouldn't really be able to make several attacks during the other players' turn.

counters in general shouldn't be the rule but the exception.
In many rpg games counters are given only in specific situations like crossing an area in reach of an hostile creature or giving your back to the enemy (look at D&D opportunity attacks) and generally only once per turn unless you make a specific build centered on that.

I'm not saying we should change the game to allow counters only in specific situations but I think that 4 swordsmen who attack a knight shouldn't automatically die during their attack.

My idea is to make counterattack only once per turn or, maybe better, once per maxaction (so a unit with 2/3 attacks can actually provide 2/3 counters).

This way you can send the "tank" (e.g. a shielder) to get the counter, while more fragile units tank the target safely.

What do you think about that?

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:41 pm
by godOfKings
So units with more action has more counter atks, well it also depend on how big we believe the unit is, if its a whole army in a single tile, like civilisation 5, then unlimited counter atks make sense, but also lower HP unit would deal lower dmg then, but if we consider it a single person, then I support Alexander's view

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:01 pm
by Alexander82
Aside everything I consider units to be a single one in every tile. In general would be weird having an army of dragons or giants in one tile :D

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:49 am
by makazuwr32
I agree with *number of actions* amount of counters for unit.
And that only specific units must have unlimited amount of counters.

Alas this way you can send not the tank to remove counter but for example scout dog or fairy and then attack with all your units.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:31 am
by Alexander82
Yes. The most obvious choices are tanky or expendable units

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:58 am
by Midonik
Alexander82 wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:01 pm
Aside everything I consider units to be a single one in every tile. In general would be weird having an army of dragons or giants in one tile :D
They can just scale, similar to unit sizes in TW: Warhammer (the bigger creatures, the less per unit). Genuinely the game is quite adaptable to different scales (what I often use in my campaigns), maybe besides strategical, cause then the ranges are getting too huge.

I dunno what to think about that, it's a huge change in game mechanics (more broken maps to fix, freaking yeah), it sounds sensful and in fact how it works is quite annoying. Something like that can help with the tanks problem in AoWw too, in fact it was suggested for them to counter once. It will be a nerf for tanky units and a boost for numbers, what might be needed. It will open new strategies. But it's still a huge change in game mechanics that will require Daniel's codding, and probably some balance and map related issues too.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:11 am
by Alexander82
I see your point. In general though I think it is needed to give proper advantages and downsides to every strategy.

At the moment big ones are probably overall better but we should still take into account strength of numbers.

I know that many times people talk about simplicity as something good but I think that in AoF it is necessary to add more complexity to balance things out.

For example big units are meant to be physically stronger but being costly their disadvantage is that they can be outnumbered but right now this is more of an advantage because allows them to attack more times.

in general, considering your AoW example, a tank shouldn't even be able to counter and having a tank shooting a missile every time is attacked is not just imbalanced but is beyond logic.

At the same time A giant or a ents aren't ninjas and if a counter can be fine, 2 are already strange. And when facing units with a big attack value they might end up making more than 4 counters (because units attacking them dies).

In general we might still allow agile units more counters through tech (e.g. elves might use another fencig tech to counter more attacks)

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:18 am
by makazuwr32
I would prefer for dwarves to have 2 researchable abilities:
1. Upon activation unit gains +100% to its attack and 100% damage on counter until next turn. Costs all actions.
2. Upon activation unit gains +X (debatable) amount of counters. No attack or counter damage increase. Also costs all actions.

Not for elves.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:23 am
by makazuwr32
Also i want to completely remove counter attacks from mechanical siege and archer type units.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:20 am
by Alexander82
makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:23 am
Also i want to completely remove counter attacks from mechanical siege and archer type units.
I totally agree

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:28 am
by Stratego (dev)
my 5 cents:
- siege already such (is some not then should)
- but archers i am not sure, i saw legolas figting back with bows :)

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:01 pm
by makazuwr32
For campain only ones it is fine to have counter but for trainable ones i think unless said otherwise there must be no counter attacks.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:36 pm
by Alexander82
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:28 am
my 5 cents:
- siege already such (is some not then should)
- but archers i am not sure, i saw legolas figting back with bows :)
ahahahah, in thosefilms legolas never did something that a real archer would ever do, like using an arrow in close combat to hit a uruk in the eye xD

Seriously, aside godly characters that do unrealistic things bows can't counter unless they switch to a backup weapon (so they can't unless we give them a 2nd stance with transform with no bow and melee weapon in hand).

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:56 pm
by makazuwr32
I actually like how archers counter in heroes of might and magic series:
They have sort of knife with which they counter attack in melee.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:21 pm
by Alexander82
A knife against armor is like hitting a tank with rocks xD

anyway I thin we might either remove archer counter or giving them a far lower damage

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:23 pm
by Alexander82
mmm... I was thinking... what about a progressively reduced counter damage or an increasing miss chance the more you make?

for example damage or hit chance might halve for every counter

So you would end up with: 100%/50%/25%/12.5%/6.25% and so on

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:40 pm
by makazuwr32
This idea i don't like.

And by the way archers in heroes of might and magic in melee do only halved damage.

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:56 pm
by Stratego (dev)
lol :) than there we are, counter is halved already :)

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:56 pm
by godOfKings
Except for bonus, even with bonus is an 'archer' supposed to deal full counter damage to infantry?

(Not that its such a big deal in aos though)

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:07 pm
by godOfKings
I m sry stratego but it seems in the end the only things being agreed on is either limit no. of counter atks (Alexander's suggestion) or simply make counter deal half damage regardless of bonus (my suggestion) with some special units dealing full counter dmg using the spec action for full counter (in that regard, in the battle of polytopia game, another TBS game in Google play, only unit that could deal full counter damage was the defender, does full counter was more special and unique feature there)


However I would like to clarify that I need more votes and supports in aos, especially coolguy's opinion b4 my changes are EVEN CONSIDERED for aos :D

Re: counterattack mechanic

Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:14 am
by makazuwr32
For aof we need to make limited to number of actions unit has amount of counters in the base for 95% of units.