Page 1 of 2

Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:37 am
by Sunrise Samurai
This would be an entirely new way to include minor factions, rather than giving them a whole race or reducing them to a subrace.

Each alliance can be obtained as any race, and should be limited to a maximum of 15 units, 5 buildings, and 3-5 techs. They are meant to support the main race, not replace, but deserve more space than a mere subrace.

Open diplomacy:
Cost 5 at TC, requires writing
Mostly a placeholder tech to reduce the cost of the next stage, as most of the options are legendary and we don't need to get 6 turns into research only to lose it all because someone beat them to their preferred alliance. May be used later to enable player diplomacy options like changing teams or gifting units if these are added.

All further techs require the "open diplomacy" tech and are researched at tc. Each one disables the rest, so you can only pick one.

Mercenary recruiting:
Cost 1
No gem cost to unlock, not legendary. This one is the default if you can't afford a different one or your preferred alliance is taken by another player. It enables you to recruit misfit units that won't fit any other race, a few units from each race, and possibly some couple from other factions.

Warfell Alliance:
Cost 3
Legendary (once one player researches, nobody else can), enables units from the Warfell topic. General Brave is already in charge of that one. Warfell units are mostly human, and seem defensively oriented with some decent magic added.

Shogunate Alliance:
Cost 3
Legendary, enables shogunate units (I'll make a topic if the alliance concept is accepted. Expect samurai and Ninjas, obviously)

Nature Defenders Pact:
Cost 3
Legendary, needs Mak to make topic

Call to Justice:
Cost 3
Legendary, enables HOJ units (ayush needed to come up with these(

Creators' Collective services agreement:
Cost 2
Legendary, enables units from the creators/creations topic.

Beastclan Envoy:
Cost 2
Legendary, enables units from the beastclan topic

Demonic Pact
Cost 2
Legendary, enables units from demons topic

These options should all be balanced against each other, and should be considered reinforcements to your main race rather than the go to option.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:31 am
by Savra
This would add an interesting twist to the game, would probably be your answer to these new races.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:32 am
by Savra
By the looks of some of these races they are forumer, are they not?

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:52 am
by Tankhead
Savra wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:32 am
By the looks of some of these races they are forumer, are they not?
Yes, up to the forum leaders what units they can have in they're group

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:11 am
by Savra
So if bugs don't get excepted and I make myself a character finally I could put them as my legendary group and they can still be added?

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:12 am
by makazuwr32
Agree with everything exept of demons.
I want to see demons as normal race still, not as alliance.

1. You are not in any group.
2. Alex doesn't want insects in any form i think.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:36 am
by General Brave
Well not not maybe a race.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:52 am
by Lynx Shafir
Something will need for the tavern "game mode. and the mix races" game mode.
Similar ideas.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:47 pm
by Alexander82
Sorry guys but I don't get the whole forum leaders thing.

Races should be set on something that makes sense and not on forum people races.

I think we should seriously write down some setting and plan what exist and what not.

Since humans have imperials I think we should consider them like having more populations under the empire (basic units that are from most of the countries, imperials from the emperor's kingdom, warfell and, why not, oriental units).

Elves have all the nature subraces and elven subraces

Dwarves might have gnome and artifacts

Scalefolks have their reptilian subraces

Undeads have demons

Orcs have goblin, giants, Minotaurs and so on

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:11 pm
by makazuwr32
Nono.
This one is like gaining support from one of neutrals for your side.

As for demons they must be as their own race.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:52 pm
by Savra
So you guys only get to pick from existing races and modify them to match your hero? Also I don't actually want beastclans to be mercenaries I 'd rather see them as a race of their own. My personal opinion that is.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:01 pm
by Tankhead
Ok well besides forum group races what about the other one like:

- Creators/creations alliance
- shogunate alliance
- Warfell alliance
Humans have plenty of suggested units already, honestly think its time to look at another race to add units.

Also demons and beastclan should be they're own separate race. They easily have they're own unique race concept and have troops/buildings to boot

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:11 pm
by Alexander82
makazuwr32 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:11 pm
As for demons they must be as their own race.
No. I think I've made it clear in other topics but demons can be used as elite units for undeads

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:54 pm
by Tankhead
Alexander82 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:11 pm
makazuwr32 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:11 pm
As for demons they must be as their own race.
No. I think I've made it clear in other topics but demons can be used as elite units for undeads
Besides forum group races what you think of for the other Alliances?
- Creations/Creator Alliance
- Warfell Alliance
- Shogunate Alliance

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:14 pm
by Sunrise Samurai
Alright, aside from usergroup alliances what is your stance on alliances with minor races @Alexander82?

Re: Mercenaries and

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:23 pm
by Lynx Shafir
I wlk see demons as own race.
And Beastclans too
(they stand on their own feet and have plenty of units and unique strategies.
And anyway if spend the time on making images, skills, coding mechanics - what they require - it the best choice to make their own race)

But if no than surely not only for undeads.
With phantoms and the other subgroup they got enough Elites.

For demons Wuld be fair as accessible for every race.
Thoug will loose lot of content in both way. :(


What would be the neutrals?

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:24 pm
by StormSaint373
Nice thinking...
Kinda makes me wanna make an alliance-worthy race. . . :lol:

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:33 pm
by Savra
So the insect race is no more correct? I would like to know this before I go on to plan B with a certain side of them.
If you'd like to know what I was planning it was this:
Hostile neutral: spiders
Spiders den:
Mountain spider
Trap spider
Webber spider
Behometh tarantula

This way you have at least one hostile neutral race ready as well as having some campaign units.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:33 pm
by Alexander82
I think that current (and future) subraces are already a form of alliance.

Also the mechanics include the fact that some races would expand their army allying with races that wouldn't really fit them (for example people from the shogunate or warfell shouldn't ally with undeads or orcs).

Moreover I think that the alliance mechanic risk of making the game flat and I'll explain why:

If I make alliances with a whole race (20 units seems enough like almost a full race to me) it means that i'm probably going to use those units becase:

1) They are simply better than those i have available within my current race

2) They provide mechanics that act in synergy with my race (they can give me spells I can't use or extra bonus aura and such)

3) They fill up roles that my current units don't

That will basically remove the purpose of making different races that can be played in a different way.


I understand that you want everyone to ally with different races (If I choose one i remove it from other player's list) but I think that this mechanic:

1) At the moment doesn't work and must be coded

2) It just reward the first player and increase the gap between the first who choose and the others

3) It doesn't really make sense because we can already have more player from the same races fight one against the other

So I'm not into this whole idea as it is but:

We might use this as a new mechanic to expand current races (so that they can choose 2 or 3 paths or even all but at a high cost).

So, for example, humans might use this tech to decide if going imperial, warfell or shogunate

Orcs might choose it to expand toward uruks or minotaurs

Undeads might choose phantoms or demons.

This is just an idea but it might favor the use of basic units at least in short to medium games

If I need a couple of techs before starting recruiting uruks I might simply decide it isn't woth it and I might prefer going orcs and goblins if i'm playing ina 20x20 map

Tell me what you think

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:22 pm
by Sunrise Samurai
I think I can see your point.

Using the mechanic to expand current races sounds interesting, forcing players to choose carefully on how they advance with options on this set of elite units or this other set.

On the shogunate units: If I must pick a race, I'd actually prefer to make them elves, capitalizing on the natural speed and dodge techs. Besides, it would be a fresh take and we're writing our own lore here so elves from the far east joining their brethren with unique skills could be fun.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:34 pm
by Tankhead
Doesn't sound bad, can creations/creators be a tech ( path way ) for dwarfs?

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:45 pm
by Alexander82
Tankhead wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:34 pm
Doesn't sound bad, can creations/creators be a tech ( path way ) for dwarfs?
I don't know what they are 😂

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:47 pm
by Alexander82
Sunrise Samurai wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:22 pm

On the shogunate units: If I must pick a race, I'd actually prefer to make them elves, capitalizing on the natural speed and dodge techs. Besides, it would be a fresh take and we're writing our own lore here so elves from the far east joining their brethren with unique skills could be fun.
The idea isn't totally out of question (that remains me of the elder scroll's altmers) but even tough they stay humans they might be a dodge oriente choice while imperials are armor oriented and warfell might beh the in between choice

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:59 pm
by Tankhead
Alexander82 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:45 pm
Tankhead wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:34 pm
Doesn't sound bad, can creations/creators be a tech ( path way ) for dwarfs?
I don't know what they are 😂
Inventors and scientists from beastmen, elves, humans, and dwarfs that have they're own view of the world. That have the unique option to make units depending on they're various builder.
Of course they're is some producable units that can be made from tcs and buildings. They are good with tech like dwarfs but in they're own way

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:32 pm
by Alexander82
Tankhead wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:59 pm
Alexander82 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:45 pm
Tankhead wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:34 pm
Doesn't sound bad, can creations/creators be a tech ( path way ) for dwarfs?
I don't know what they are 😂
Inventors and scientists from beastmen, elves, humans, and dwarfs that have they're own view of the world. That have the unique option to make units depending on they're various builder.
Of course they're is some producable units that can be made from tcs and buildings. They are good with tech like dwarfs but in they're own way
I'm not pretty sure about it.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:02 pm
by General Brave
Alexander82 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:33 pm
I think that current (and future) subraces are already a form of alliance.

Also the mechanics include the fact that some races would expand their army allying with races that wouldn't really fit them (for example people from the shogunate or warfell shouldn't ally with undeads or orcs).

Moreover I think that the alliance mechanic risk of making the game flat and I'll explain why:

If I make alliances with a whole race (20 units seems enough like almost a full race to me) it means that i'm probably going to use those units becase:

1) They are simply better than those i have available within my current race

2) They provide mechanics that act in synergy with my race (they can give me spells I can't use or extra bonus aura and such)

3) They fill up roles that my current units don't

That will basically remove the purpose of making different races that can be played in a different way.


I understand that you want everyone to ally with different races (If I choose one i remove it from other player's list) but I think that this mechanic:

1) At the moment doesn't work and must be coded

2) It just reward the first player and increase the gap between the first who choose and the others

3) It doesn't really make sense because we can already have more player from the same races fight one against the other

So I'm not into this whole idea as it is but:

We might use this as a new mechanic to expand current races (so that they can choose 2 or 3 paths or even all but at a high cost).

So, for example, humans might use this tech to decide if going imperial, warfell or shogunate

Orcs might choose it to expand toward uruks or minotaurs

Undeads might choose phantoms or demons.

This is just an idea but it might favor the use of basic units at least in short to medium games

If I need a couple of techs before starting recruiting uruks I might simply decide it isn't woth it and I might prefer going orcs and goblins if i'm playing ina 20x20 map

Tell me what you think
We have discussed that idea before on Discord, anything that would allow me to keep and expand I will support.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:54 pm
by Alexander82
Tonight (well it was night for me) I had a good chat with both @General Brave and @Sunrise Samurai

We tought a way to add more subrace expansion avoiding to set too strict limitations and without flattening out all the races around similar stats:

As I suggested here we will access subraces/elite units/other races by adding a tech requirement.

That wouldn't be much different from researching a tech if not for a few details

Since we want to be difficult to make all subraces alliances/researches in one game we wanted to limit diplomatic researches to one at time. To obtain that effect @Sunrise Samurai suggested that those techs will be researchable only in a specific building (for humans, elves and dwarves that shall be an embassy, for undeads it might be a place where to make unholy rituals and so on) that won't count as a factory; player will be able to build only one at time (so no research spamming).

Since not all subraces are the same in terms of strength, variety and number of units every tech will have its own cost and bigger/stronger races will require to research more techs before unlocking all the units of that subrace (e.g. warfell alliance will unlock the basic units, a second tech will unlock the elite units and the warfell siege contract will unlock their siege units).

This new feature, however, will influence every subrace already in game with orcs that will be allowed to build only orcish and goblin units at the beginning, humans only common human units, elves only wood elves (btw we tought to make sun elves the "Rising Sun Elves" with a more japanese flavor and the moon elves called "New Moon Elves" in contrast, being the arcane oriented part of the race).

This will also help a lot to keep balance in place since orcs won't have access to uruks and most of the giant from the start (probably the orc leader only since it is an orc unit), elves will require some time to obtain their best melee units (rising sun) and casters (New Moon), and we might go on with every race.

Of course some base races might require some expansion (like wood elves that might have some more unicorn riders variants and mounted archers).

We mostly tought that:

Humans can go Imperial and Warfell (and maybe some oriental style too if we like)

Orcs will start as orcs plus goblin (I'm still not sure about trolls but they will have probably to recruit them) and will recruit their uruks (I was thinking a tech for uruk infantry and another tech for ologs and caragors), Giants that aren't orcs and Minotaurs/Beasts

Undeads will start as zombies/ghouls and skeletons and can recruit phantoms, devils (lawful evil) and Horrors (chaotic evil chtulu style) all passing by some cultist recruiting first

Elves will start as wood and can go nature units (plus other beasts and such), Rising Sun and New Moon

Dwarves will start as dwarves alone and will be able to recruit gnomes and their technologic artifact units (so they will basically might have contracts related technology and such) and they might recruit other dwarven subraces

Scalefolk will mostly start as kobolds and lizards and will unlock more powerful races (that will need some more expansion, like turtles that will also have some easter eggs).

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:57 pm
by Midonik
Sounds like well-thoughted concept.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:09 pm
by General Brave
It is good for me.

Re: Mercenaries and Alliances

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:20 pm
by Alexander82
I'd like @Stratego (dev) to read my previous post.

Every heavy modification should still pass under his approval.

We discussed about this yesterday and we agreed that this should not affect in every way existing games (no crashes)