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Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:07 am
by Alexander82
As I told you before locking the old post, we need to remake the race since it was implemented randomly.

I'll start giving the first guidelines about that.

1) no unit upgrades

2) a lot of techs

3) the flavor must be more "primal" (that is also why no upgradesl. Also they are reptiles, not mammals, so no hair on unit images nor breasts or typical mammal features

4) we should have both general techs and subrace related techs that should improve natural traits of the various subraces. Techs wil basically act as an evolving system

5) about dragons we need to have better images and they should be mainly seen as normal units (good stats but not op). Only a few units might be actually very strong. We might have more lesser and cheaper dragons and less stronger.

6) they shouldn't rely too much on magic

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:03 am
by makazuwr32
So they will be sort of wilder elves.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:12 am
by Alexander82
You got the point!

The concept I had was to make them the melee counterpart for elves

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:22 am
by makazuwr32
I have no ideas for techs/units tho so i will wait here for other suggestions.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:33 pm
by Tankhead
Camouflage - certain lizardmen and snakemen go invisible 1 - 2 turns, moderate to high Cd

Kobolds involve into high kobold where Kobolds have wings and Can fly ( flying is an ability and has Cd )

Snakemen able to have dodge %

Lizardmen gets another tougher scales tech

Snakemen able to swim

Sturdy/durable weapons - all units get a weapon upgrade increasing attack

Enhance sight - lizard men or snakemen can see invisible units

Unlock dragon - if we are gonna increase dragons I say certain ones need unlocking ( min 2, max 4 )

Hunt - certain amount of komodo dragons around eachother other gives a speed and atk boost ( +1 sped, +3 attack )

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:01 pm
by makazuwr32
Tankhead wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:33 pm Kobolds involve into high kobold where Kobolds have wings and Can fly ( flying is an ability and has Cd )
Alexander82 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:07 am 1) no unit upgrades
Tankhead wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:33 pm Sturdy/durable weapons - all units get a weapon upgrade increasing attack
Alexander82 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:07 am 3) the flavor must be more "primal" (that is also why no upgradesl. Also they are reptiles, not mammals, so no hair on unit images nor breasts or typical mammal features
@Skelegonsans please look into this topic.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:29 pm
by Tankhead
1. Its not a unit upgrade
Its a mutation that gives you an ability:
Flight and has CD

2. Primal or not you can still upgrade primal weapons.
For example a sharp stick
You could upgrade it to where it has a sharp stone with a vine around it
Its still primal but its upgraded

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:02 am
by Lynx Shafir
Also can we work with shamanic and nature magic?

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:51 am
by General Brave
Well whatever more there is.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:15 pm
by Alexander82
Lynx Shafir wrote: Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:02 am Also can we work with shamanic and nature magic?
yes but only minor for now

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:50 pm
by LordOfAles
What would happen to current units in the game? Conjurer and Pristess for example heavily rely on magic. Is it possible to completely change unit's image and json without removing it from the game?

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:14 pm
by makazuwr32
Conjurer must definately be changed/replaced because it is 1. Unique (and alex doesn't want any unique units) 2. It is too powerful in terms of spells.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:52 pm
by Midonik
What should be the biggest strengths and weaknesses of this race in your opinion Alex?

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:53 pm
by makazuwr32
Alexander82 wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:12 am You got the point!

The concept I had was to make them the melee counterpart for elves

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:07 pm
by Midonik
I shouldn't take that too literally I guess. Cause you ain't gonna give them 4 speed, dodges and low armor on close to every unit eh? Also elfs are kinda based on magic too so that out.
But like - weak cav, weak ranged (as they are melee counterpart), not very good buildings, some posion, good melee. Some slow high cost tanks. No unit upgrades, instead ones increasing stats/giving abilities. Some what nature magic. Primal. That's why they are melee elfs? + Dragons
But still - the elfs rely on speed and dodges for survabilty. I can't really see any big reptiles, maybe besides snakes (they aren't acctualy specialy fast in moving - human is faster than normal snake, but can make a fast attack so like dodge counter definitely), being so agile. Armor, at the other hand, because of scales, would make sense. Is that what we are going for?
Also do we keep water walk on everything besides kobolds (spearmen can still walk on water or its finally changed?)?

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:33 pm
by Alexander82
I meant as a playstile. Fast units, no upgrades and tech based

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:54 pm
by Puss_in_Boots
i like this reworked structure, and I definitely agree scalefolk were rushed. Also I do not support lizards riding a horse like a nobleman.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:10 pm
by Alexander82
I guess there are better options for them

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:21 pm
by Puss_in_Boots
I figure if they're gonna have fast striking units, it makes more sense to have them cooperate with fast moving scaled beasts than to mount unto them. If they're going to be carried around anyway it might as well be in reptilian ways such as the mouth for crocodiles. The reason people mount on horses is because it's not going to do much on it's own, but war elephants weren't always mounted because they did well on their own.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:48 pm
by Alexander82
I think it is a good approach

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:45 pm
by godOfKings
say, will the komodo dragons and lizards riding them still stay? the lizard i drew was so well, i would b sad if it was discarded :(

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:28 pm
by makazuwr32
I hope they will stay. Alex also liked their look initially.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:06 pm
by Alexander82
Lizard-on-a-lizard is ok

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:39 pm
by Savra
So how exactly would the new units look?

Would they be kinda like these? (Ones a kobald, the other are lizardmen.)
Image
Image

Also, tribal society's usually made weapons from bone, stone, and even obsidian so maybe that might be an idea for weapon upgrades.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:53 pm
by Savra
Some ideas for weapons and some unit classes based off of Aztecs warfare:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_warfare
Snakemen:
http://ancientmilitary.com/egyptian-weapons.htm
Could be helpful, lots of useful stuff.


This should be all from me for now, I like the idea of scaledfolks being changed into a more primal race, but I don't know what Alexander plans for units (redesigns and all) so I'll wait till their done before I start suggesting anything more.

If I remember correctly from reading the old topic, their unit structure was kinda like orcs:

Kobalds were like lowly goblins

Lizardmen were like the basic orcs

Snakemen would be kinda like the trolls but not as heavy hitters but as specialized units

Draconians were like uruks being practically demigod because they are pretty much part Dragon

They would use reptilian creatures like elves use mystical creatures.

This new addition of playstyle pretty much mixes orcs and elves together and if lizardmen can move through water with the research of a certain tech then you can throw undead in the mix as well.

So in the end they are a blend of 3 races pretty much, all making the 1 scaledfolk race that you, and most of us originally saw before the one that seems like something out of a mod got in?

Am I correct in all this? If so then I might have plenty ideas that could work that might set it back into the original idea. Most of which would remove most of the dragons abilities and make them more like the normal dragons, we could keep most the buildings (some would need redrawing and editing to look more primal) as for units structure they could be based on how the Aztecs based the soldiers ranks (They were a warrior society after all) kobalds would be at the bottom, lizardmen and snakemen would be in between and the highest ranks would be the draconians. Priestess could be replaced with a witchdoctor. I could probably offer a better suggestion after more research on both scaledfolks topic of old, and primitive society.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:55 am
by Savra
An example:

Equipped with a leather shield with decorative feathers, and a Tlaximaltepoztli or basically tomahawk.

@Alexander82 would this be along the lines of what your looking for?

(It is not an upgrade but a replacement of the kobald warrior.)

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:51 pm
by Puss_in_Boots
If they're going to be Meso-American based, I want Quetzalcoatl (A god that's usually a feathered flying lizard) to be their super unit instead of all the current dragons. If not, I still want a unit based off Quetzalcoatl. :P

But honestly that's an amazing redesign.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:53 pm
by makazuwr32
Quetzacoatl actually is nice idea for super unit like hydra.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:09 pm
by Savra
We could have the Quetzacoatl could be a mount for a lizardmen, like a Griffin rider. I'll try and do some more like that mostly what I'm looking at is something around:
Units:(42 in all)
Kobalds: (7)
Image
Kobald Tlamanih:
Desc:
Trains:
Cost:
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Atk:
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Bonuses:
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Image
Kobald slinger:
Desc:
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Image
Kobald darter: (armed with a blow gun)
Desc:
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Abilities:


Image
Monitor rider:
Desc:
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Kobald broodguard:
Desc:
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ImageImage
Kobald witchdoctor: (main healer)
Desc:
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Kobald welp: (main builder)
Desc:
Trains:
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Mend:
Arm:
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Bonuses:

Lizardmen:(10)
Image
Lizardmen Tepoztōpīlli: (stronger spearmen)
Desc:
Trains:
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Lizardmen Cuextecatl: (Shielder)
Desc:
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Komodo rider:
Desc:
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Lizardmen headhunter: (skirmisher)
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Lizardmen clubber: (mace men unit)
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Lizardmen Hunter: (archer)
Desc:
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Lizardmen Huitznahuatl: (support)
Desc:
Trains:
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Atk:
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S.rng:
S.poss:
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Abilities:

Turtlemen:
Desc:
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Salamander Fireslinger:
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Lizardmen tiachcahuan: (sergent like unit)
Desc:
Trains:
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Atk:
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Bonuses:

Snakemen:(7)
Image
Snakemen blademaster:
Desc:
Trains:
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Snakemen Spearmen:
Desc:
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Gorgon: (offensive caster)
Desc:
Trains:
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Atk:
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S.rng:
S.poss:
Sight:
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Abilities:

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Lamla: (not the spell happy one but one that just has an enchanted weapon with lifelik and made to fight mages like a hamletback sorta)
Desc:
Trains:
Cost:
Hp:
Atk:
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Bonuses:

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Naga reefhunter: (main sea unit)
Desc:
Trains:
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Atk:
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Naga shrieker: (has scream ability)
Desc:
Trains:
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Abilities:

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Acid spitter (anti building unit)
Desc:
Trains:
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Abilities:

Gatormen: (3)

Gatormen harpoonist:
Desc:
Trains:
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Abilities:

Gatormen Gutter:
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Gatormen Grappler:
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Draconian:(7)
Image
Draconian Dragon warrior: (shielder)
Desc:
Trains:
Cost:
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Atk:
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Bonuses:
Abilities:

Image
Draconian Javelineer:
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Draconian Papalotl: (spearmen)
Desc:
Trains:
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Draconian Cuachic (macemen unit)
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Draconian Dragonborn: (flying unit with sword like weapon)
Desc:
Trains:
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Magma drake rider: (elite cavalry)
Desc:
Trains:
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Bonuses:
Abilities:

(All draconians but the dragonborn, can't fly. They can all enchant their weapons with fire. Have low armour. [similar to uruks somewhat] Have own techs, which do require some of the lizardmens and kobalds techs first. They have good health to compensate for lack of defence.)

Dragons:(7)
Image
Black Dragon: (no auras, anti air unit like eagle.)
Desc:
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Red Dragon: (has fire ball and that's it. No auras)
Desc:
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Abilities:

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Gold Dragon: (can build still)
Desc:
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Bonuses:

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Devourer: (has eat corpse and lifelink passive but no aura)
Desc:
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Abilities:

Grey dragon: (somewhat like ettin, remove all auras and spells)
Desc:
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Acid Dragon: (has Acid breath with same cool as dragonbreath, no and but longer range. No auras or other spells.)
Desc:
Trains:
Cost:
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Atk:
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S.rng:
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Bonuses:S
Abilities:

Image
Sea dragon: (basically like the sea serpent.)
Desc:
Trains:
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Bonuses:

Other reptiles:(5)
Image
Quetzacoatl:
Desc:
Trains:
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Komodo: (scout unit)
Desc:
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Image
Wyrm: (battering ram style unit that can dig)
Desc:
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Bonuses:

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Basilisk: (special)
Desc:
Trains:
Cost:
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Atk:
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S.rng:
S.poss:
Sight:
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Bonuses:
Abilities:

Image
Hydra: (same as before)
Desc:
Trains:
Cost:
Hp:
Atk:
Rng:
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P.arm:
Res:
Bonuses:
Abilities:

Ships:
Raft:
Desc:
Trains:
Hp:
Atk:
Rng:
Sight:
Spd:
Cap:
Arm:
P.arm:
Res:
Bonuses:

Buildings: (14 in all)
Factories:(8)
Image
Temple: (mega, trains draconians and special reptiles)
Desc:
Produces:
Cost:
Hp:
Atk:
Rng:
Sight:
M.bonus:
Heal:
Arm:
P.arm:
Cap:
Bonuses:

ImageImage
Swamp hut: (trains melee infantry and cavalry)
Desc:
Produces:
Cost:
Hp:
Sight:
M.bonus:
Heal:
Arm:
P.arm:
Cap:

ImageImage
Snake pit: (trains snakemen)
Desc:
Produces:
Cost:
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Heal:
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P.arm:
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Dragons perch: (trains dragons)
Desc:
Produces:
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Draconian lair: (trains draconians)
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Hunters hut: (trains ranged units)
Desc:
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Shamans circle: (trains mages and also works as a blacksmith)
Desc:
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Nagas den: (trains nagas and reptilian sea monsters)
Desc:
Produces:
Cost:
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Sight:
M.bonus:
Heal:
Arm:
P.arm:
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Fortifications:(8)
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Poison tower:
Desc:
Cost:
Hp:
Atk:
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M.bonus:
Heal:
Arm:
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Cap:
Bonuses:

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Fire tower:
Desc:
Cost:
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Atk:
Rng:
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M.bonus:
Heal:
Arm:
P.arm:
Cap:
Bonuses:

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Fort:
Desc:
Cost:
Hp:
Atk:
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M.bonus:
Heal:
Arm:
P.arm:
Cap:
Bonuses:

Pallisades:
Desc:
Cost:
Hp:
Sight:
M.bonus:
Arm:
P.arm:

Image
Pallisades gate:
Desc:
Cost:
Hp:
Sight:
M.bonus:
Arm:
P.arm:

Mantle:
Desc:
Cost:
Hp:
Sight:
M.bonus:
Spd:
Arm:
P.arm:
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Poison pit:
Desc:
Cost:
Atk:
Sight:
Arm:
P.arm:

Image
Punji trap:
Desc:
Cost:
Atk:
Sight:
Arm:
P.arm:

Techs:(16 in all)
Kobalds:(3)
Simple wings: they gain bat like wings and almost all kobalds gain the ability to transform but they have no bonuses and have just 3 attack. Can't capture buildings either.
Cost:

Quick lizards: gain +1 speed so they would have same speed as elves.
Cost:

Feral kobalds: Kobalds gain a attack buff if standing near another kobald.
Cost:

Lizardmen: (1)
Reptilian senses: can now see invisible units.
Cost:

Snakemen:(2)
Snakemen reflexes: 3 levels that just upgrade dodges.
Cost:

Counterstrike: snakemen do full damage on counter.
Cost:

Techs for all:(4)
ImageImageImage
Hardened scales:3 levels. Effects all lizardmen, Snakemen, Nagas, Draconian, and kobalds armour. Gives lizards +2 regeneration, and Draconians regeneration +3, both gain +1regeneration per level.
Cost:

ImageImageImage
Reptilian Ascension: 3 levels. Increases all lizardmen, Snakemen, Nagas, Draconians and kobalds attack.
Cost:

Expert hunters: 3 levels. Gives ranged units +1 range and +25% accuracy.
Cost:

Swift swimmers: requires natural swimmers tech, +1 speed in water for both lizardmen and Nagas.
Cost:

Casters:(2)
Curse: (for gorgon, unlocks basilisk)
Cost:

Poison mist: (for lizardmen Huitznahuatl)
Cost:
They need images, names aren't final, not all units were included, Just some basic ones. What does everyone think? If Makazuwr wants who could supply their stats, lizardmen would be 3 turn and higher units.

If you want I could start separating them for stats and just let everyone fill the blanks in with what looks like the original goal.

Re: Scalefolk rework

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:51 am
by Savra
Some others...