Balance: Increase the cost of Raptor Riders to 4 turns - ANSWERED

[Anchar]

Now that the orcs have a light cavalryman like all other cavalrymen, it is possible to increase the production of an orcish lancer on a raptor, I think that in the present and in the past it was too cheap, but justified by due to the replacement of light cavalry, now there is a light cavalry and he is in 2 roles, you need to increase the cost of the raptor rider to 4.

[Alexander82]

That topic have been discussed already and ended up with the improval of other lancers power.

[Anchar]

What does power have to do with it, if it costs 3 moves and combines a spearman and a light cavalryman + has enhanced statistics characteristic of orcs. From the beginning of each battle, players produce light cavalry to capture city centers and spearmen to protect them, orcs do not need to bother about this, 3 moves and they have a fighter who immediately captures and defends the building. Also, pumping orc cavalry costs only 4 turns, thanks to which this warrior will not only deprive the enemy of a light cavalryman, but without any loss of lives will destroy the spearman who was made against him.
In addition, as I wrote, the usual Orc Light Cavalry is not needed and does not make sense. I believe that this rider is out of balance, he overwhelmingly facilitates the capture of centers and their defense, and whoever captures more centers wins in 90% of cases.

[Alexander82]

Not all units from the different races need to have the same cost.

Both raptor rider and light cavalry can live together. they have different bonuses and behaviour (the light cavalry can be great if buffed, since it has a double action).

The unit have also been removed from the starting set so any player can already have some anti cavalry or archers to defend from it.

[Anchar]

Light cavalry of all races are excluded from the starter kit, and if we calculate the balance based on what is bought for gems, why not add a rider on a pegasus and argue that he is not in the starter kit?

If not all types of races fighters should have the same cost, then why isn't an elven or dead spearman worth 1 turn? Orc archer increased to 3 turns because there is a similar goblin archer + the orc race does not specialize in archers and most importantly, orc archers are given 1 turn, and not taken away.

The raptor rider and the light rider live together like a normal human archer and a warfell archer. In practice, everyone makes a raptor for objective advantages, against which a double strike looks ridiculous.

I see no reason to leave the raptor 3 turns of cost, neither in terms of balance, nor in terms of logic or aesthetics, atmosphere.

[Alexander82]

Light cavalry of all races are excluded from the starter kit, and if we calculate the balance based on what is bought for gems, why not add a rider on a pegasus and argue that he is not in the starter kit?

I meant the first 4 units you get on a TC

f not all types of races fighters should have the same cost, then why isn't an elven or dead spearman worth 1 turn? Orc archer increased to 3 turns because there is a similar goblin archer + the orc race does not specialize in archers and most importantly, orc archers are given 1 turn, and not taken away.

then you are answering yourself
a goblin archer is far worse that a elven archer and has the same cost, not all units from all races have to be the same

The raptor rider and the light rider live together like a normal human archer and a warfell archer. In practice, everyone makes a raptor for objective advantages, against which a double strike looks ridiculous.

If you don't like the scout don't use it. I find it a good unit (obviously is not a good unit to use against a lancer unit of any race).

[Stratego (dev)]

Alex referred as "starter" that a unit that you get by default when you launch a game (in "many units" starting units mode)
also i think different cost on anything is totally good (some races can be mass producing read: cheaper units, others are not)

this topic should only talk about balance, so please focus on balance questions in this matter. thanks!

We can make such balancing threads (i advise starting the title with "Balance:") so we see and others can like or dislike the balance issue proposal.

thanks!

[Anchar]

Excuse my 1st paragraph was a mistake due to the fact that the translator misrepresented the meaning. You are talking about a starter kit, but I always do a fight with a minimum starter kit. And if you play with the starting set, no one prevents the orcs from teaching raptors in the future, the choice to disperse people is more meager in the future: a spearman who will slowly go to the goal and in the case of undead or an elf will die in vain, light cavalry will also die for objective reasons, a rider with a spear will be more expensive, slower and will most likely be killed in advance, a swordsman is also useless, archers will kill a raptor for too long, but the raptor will easily knock out a light cavalryman and even a spearman from your center, after which it will capture.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok i think your statement is clear: you say Raptor rider is too strong to be 3 turn costed.

now lets see how others think about it.

thanks!

[Alexander82]

Sorry @Anchar I don't understand much your last answer. Try translating your words manually.

About what I've got from your last post...


The raptor rider has 20 hp and no armor at base and that is enough for a human spearman to kill it (the human spearman deals 4+450% damage, that is 22). If the raptor rider attack first it can't kill the spearman and is killed the following turn.

Two defending archer can kill him in 2 turns (they deal 5 damage at base and have 11 hp so none of them die with the first attack from the raptor rider which deals 8 damage and have no bonus against archers).

One orc scout acts worse against the spearman (2 attacks means 2 counters from the spearman)

It still acts a lot better against the 2 archers (the first time it attacks it deals 2x(5+100%) damage to an archer (so it deals 20 damage the first time it engages them) and then it only takes one arrow the following turn, and since the unit has 22 hp it manages to survive enough to kill the 2nd archer.

Obviously if your enemies are going full cavalry you have a greater advantage by going for raptor riders, but at the same time if I was fighting against elves (where all their basic units have speed 4 and their archers are great) I would definitely go scouts.

[Anchar]

I experimented on my map and found that an elven archer deals 5 damage, a human 4, a dead 4, it is no longer possible to kill a rider in 3 turns with costs in 4 turns through archers not elves in 2 turns, no loss.
Imagine the situation you capture the center with a light cavalryman, nearby, at the same time as you, an enemy raptor captured another center, you put the archer in line, but on the next turn he kills your scout in the center with the help of the raptor, another turn and you have an archer, but your opponent also has a goblin archer who takes some of your archer's life, after which the raptor finishes off your archer and takes the center.

A stage 1 raptor cannot kill a 1v1 lancer, but a stage 2 raptor (and stage 2 costs 4 turns for orc cavalry, like some kind of ambidexterity for humans) can kill an undead spearman and elves if he does not dodge.

It was also found in the experiments that scouts of orcs, undead, people kill spearmen of people, undead and elves in 1 turn

[Alexander82]

Ok, I checked again and it has 1 point of armor, so you need an extra attack with human archers.

Anyway orc cavalry doesn't require 4 turns to upgrade. they also require the orc elite techs that cost 6 turns so it either basically upgrade orcs at the beginning or go for goblins.

Also the unit has 8 attack, how can it kill in one attack a spearman? Those should all have 10+ hp each.

[Alexander82]

I forgot also to mention one thing.

In these days I'm discussing the implementations of the new categories that will replace current ones.

One of this changes will affect archers that should loose their bonus to infantry melee units to get a bonus against unshielded units (they should also get some bonus against flying units as well, even if it isn't related to current topic).

Since all the light cavalry units have no shield they will become more vulnerable to arrows and thus that should make all the cavalry units of that kind much more vulnerable.

I suggest you to wait some time for that and see how it will affect the game.

[Anchar]

Orcs still evolve faster than humans and Grade 2 Raptors spawn earlier than Grade 2 Spearmen.

But the main point is not that I am dissatisfied that they are better than scouts, I wrote this additionally, the main point is that due to their versatility as a fast invader and spearman, they not only can capture your center, but also make it impossible for you to capture the center if they sit in it you will not be able to run around this rider with a scout, since the raptor will catch up with him and kill him, but the raptor can run up your ass and you will not do anything with your scout.

[Alexander82]

I don't see it as a problem as long as you can kill them with some ranged units. Anyway I suggest you to wait for further implementations.

[Anchar]

I'm talking about the very initial stage of the game in which the players produce builders and just start to build buildings, in parallel they make 1 rider, at this stage there are no heaps of archers, neither you nor the enemy, doing them means losing in the pace of building an increase in troops, and without growth of troops you will not be able to keep the centers.

[Anchar]

I also believe that in order for other people to join the discussion, in addition to the inscription "balance", it is necessary to remove the postscript "answered" as it seems to me

[Alexander82]

I consider the topic closed. I won't make ny changes to the unit.

[Stratego (dev)]

Dont worry, we will take all balance suggestions (that is why i suggested naming it "balance" for searchability) when we make a great balancing again, we need a great couple of these suggestions and other's opinions on it too.

if there are others sharing your ideas on multiplayer games you play invite them to share there idea here too (this is permanent dicussion - ingame chat is clearing automatically in a few days)

[Anchar]

Yes, I think it will be more convenient to find it in the archive . The archive, as I understand it, is like a trash can.

[Stratego (dev)]

as i said it will be found by the term "Balance", and no, it is not a trash can because of this.
answered is needed for Alex to see which topic he already handled as he currently can/want.
balancing sessions will be filled up with these even "archived" topics and things in heads on balancing week sessions.

[Anchar]

In extreme cases, I think that the raptors need to reduce their speed from 6 to 5 like all lancers. This will at least slow down the rate of capture of urban centers relative to scouts.

[Anchar]

And it will give the scout the opportunity to escape from the raptor, and maybe even run around, I also propose to reduce the counterattack to the raptor so that the scout could at least finish off the raptor with the support of archers.

[Anchar]

I would like to know that cavalrymen of other races have already made an increase in attack +2, or will it still be in the future?

[makazuwr32]

Elven Unicorn lancer already got +1 attack, Dwarven Boar lancer, Human Lancer and Skeleton Lancer got +2 attack already.

[Anchar]

Attacking a Grade 1 Human Lancer on a Grade 1 Raptor does not kill the Raptor. A raptor of the 2nd degree, having survived the attack of a human lancer, will be able to kill him.And this despite the fact that the raptor of the 2nd degree will appear much earlier than the human lancer of the 2nd degree.Also, the lancer of people has less speed. I think that the damage should have been increased by more than 2 units.

[makazuwr32]

Did you count also blacksmith upgrades?
Most people forget them sometimes.

Tier 1 human lancer has 30 hp, 11 attack and 4/4 armor (minimal required stats for getting this tier). With anti-cav bonuses he deals 11x(1+1.5)=27.5 damage rounded down to 27.

Tier 1 raptor rider has 24 hp, 10 attack, 2/2 (or 3/3 if orc skin is researched) armor.
With anti-cav bonuses he deals 10x(1+1.5)= 25 damage.

If raptor rider attacks normally upgraded human lancer tier 1 than he deals 25-4=21 damage and receives 27-3=24 damage and dies.
If human lancer attacks raptor rider he just kills him.

It is perfectly fine.

Also about orcish leveling techs:
They will be moved later to buildings only later so this will slow down their leveling progress a bit.

[Anchar]

No, I confess, I did not take this into account and I apologize. I'll double-check the data. But one way or another, a stage 2 raptor will be able to escape from a human lancer. And I have not yet compared this with skeletal lancers who are weaker than humans and do not have technologies in forges.

[Anchar]

Can't you tell me how to calculate the amount of counter attack damage? Also, according to my data, a lancer of the 1st degree does not have 30 lives and 10 attacks, but 25 lives and 8 attacks. I have an updated version.

[Savra]

You know human cavalry can gain first strike right?

Meaning even if the raptor rider attacks first the human cavalry does his damage first, then next turn the human lancer can kill them.

It's all about who strikes first really, elves lancers have dodges, undeads can actually reanimated there's from your fallen lancers which is why they are the way they are no matter the cost, I believe both humans and dwarves lancers benefit from shield upgrades as well so at max upgrade the humans one has 6/6 armour while the dwarves one has 9/9 armour at max.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is that orcs raptor riders are just focused on quick assaults but with lack of survivability, while humans and dwarves have more focus on survivability.