Lizard Blademan

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Skelegonsans
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:08 am

I think we should base the lizardmen stats on human knights. Since kobolds cost 2/3 we can make lizardmen cost 4/5, and the stats of a knight would suit an unit of this cost. The stats i suggested for this unit, for example, are similar to knight, just a bit weaker and able to go in water. I guess taking human unit stats for base is perfect since they are most diversed and balanced race of all.
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Alexander82
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:16 pm

Costs should always be balanced (a 4 turns kobold should still be better than a 3 turns lizard)

We should obviously balance things also on the unit role (e.g. a 4-turns knight is generally weaker statwise than 2 2-turns infantry left bonus aside, cause it has an advantage that is speed).

We should make the basic lizards cost 3 since they still are infantry (for example a lizard swordman could cost 3 while a kobold would cost 2) and they should habe better stats compared to a kobold and waterwalking
So my suggestion was that a 2 turn kobold might be similar to a human unit hile a 3 turn lizard would be more similar to a orc unit that cost 2.

Obviously if you make a 4 turns lizard it shall be stronger than a 3 turn one (for example a uruk hai is stronger than a orc, and a troll i stronger than a uruk)
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:59 pm

I dont think it would be balanced to do, for example, a 3 cost lizardman with the stats of an orc warrior. I would make a cost 3 unit be a bit stronger than an orc warrior, because if you wanted to play with scaledfolk against orcs, your 3 turn units would be the same as the 2 turn units of orcs, so you would be massacred, save on a map that has lots of water.
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Alexander82
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:43 pm

it would be balanced. humans have the same issue with orcs and they can easily win against them by using their strong advantages (siege units and archers, for example)
Liazrds will cost more than orcs but are able to swim, and the techs will be different from orcs. Also scalefok will have many units that can poison or fly, this is also a great advantage.

Let' make an example. Orcs rely more on the upgrade of particular units (for example if i want to use wolf riders i will just upgrade them), while i think that for scalefolk we should use a different approach. For example we make many techs that will give bonus to all specific race, for example improved scales (armor and hp) for all the races, improved swimming for lizards, better land speed for kobolds, stronger poison and fang (more poison damage and attack) for snakes and so on.

So you don't research an upgrade that improves the kobold warrior, but research an improvement that affect all kobolds (like the human smith that give bonus to a certain category).

The base stats will be lower at the start but you will have improvements for all your units that are faster to make.

Also if you compare all lizard units with orcs they all can swim, attack ship and assault overseas, while orcs specifically need to make a swamp orc that is a dedicated unit and is an infantry unit that has no specific bonuses aside those made for naval combat

The cost is then justified cause you make a single unit to serve you to more purposes. The ability to walk water is not a little advantage (orcs giant units became much more effective after gaining that at 50%, but they are costly units)

That is also why i suggested to remove the waterwalking (also considering that lizards aren't great swimmer (not more than a human i'd say).
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by MightyGuy » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:25 pm

Fantastic Idea! so we will maje techs to improve units :)
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Skelegonsans
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:36 pm

Ok, so youre suggesting that instead of making high base stats, we make better teches for scaledfolk? For example, instead of having the lizardmen have the swim ability right from start, create a swimmimg tech that allows them to swim instead?
Well... that DOES sound like a good idea
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 pm

But i still think that scaledfolk, in general, should be slightly better at melee than human, but worse than orc.
I wont change my mind about that.
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Alexander82
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:42 pm

both lizard and snakes wil be
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Skelegonsans
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:19 pm

Ok then. New suggested stats:
Cost 3
Hp 21
Atk 9
Arm/p.arm 2/2 (being a lizardman, armor is stronger than kobold)
Speed 3 (move cost in water: 2, but must have swimming tech)
Sight 5
Description: (Same as before.)

Sounds a bit better based on what we discussed up there. Agree?
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Alexander82
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:54 pm

Skelegonsans wrote:Ok then. New suggested stats:
Cost 3
Hp 21
Atk 9
Arm/p.arm 2/2 (being a lizardman, armor is stronger than kobold)
Speed 3 (move cost in water: 2, but must have swimming tech)
Sight 5
Description: (Same as before.)

Sounds a bit better based on what we discussed up there. Agree?
Yes, sort of. I was thinking more:
Cost 3
Hp 22
Atk 10 (will increase with techs)
Arm/p.arm 1/1 (will increase more with techs)
Speed 3 (50% speed in water, it will become full speed with a tech)
Sight 5
costing 3 it should be able to swim from the start, but only at reduced speed
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:23 am

Ok, seems balanced imo. So its basically a slightly more powerful kobold blademan but that can also go in water
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Alexander82
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:55 am

exactly. and lizards will become stronger with race techs
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Re: Lizard Blademan

Post by Skelegonsans » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Idea seems nice. We should begin adding tech topics now
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