Dwarven ranged units

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Sunrise Samurai
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Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:55 am

Current stats
Crossbowman
Cost 2
Hp 18
Power 6
Range 6
Armor 1/1
Speed 3
Bonus against infantry and archers

Combo archer/skirmisher with the stats of an upgraded archer. Definitely superior to any other race's basic archers, including elves, due to upgraded stats and high hp.

Rifleman
Cost 3
Hp 20
Power 8 (9 transformed)
Range 5 (6 transformed)
Armor 1/1 (3/3 transformed)
Speed 3 (0 transformed)
Bonus against infantry and archers

Same bonuses, but higher power. Requires transform to gain the missing range.

Here's my proposed stats
Crossbowman
Cost 2
Hp 18
Power 8
Range 4
Armor 1/4
Speed 3
Bonus against infantry and archers

Higher armor​, higher power, lower range. Better for comparing to a skirmisher with powerful crossbow bolts that can penetrate armor.

Rifleman
Cost 3
Hp 20
Power 8 (9 transformed) deals melee damage (better armor penetration)
Range 7 (8 transformed)
Armor 2/2 (4/4 transformed)
Speed 3 (0 transformed)
20% accuracy penalty (15% when transformed) [early guns weren't known for accuracy]
Bonus against infantry (not archers)

Longer range, but less accurate than crossbow. This one is anti infantry only, and can bypass high p. armor by hitting regular armor.

This helps differentiate the two, as well as prevent crossbow from becoming an early game version of headhunter that can outrange or at least equal the range of anybody else's archers without the maneuvering that skirmishers require from AoS and AoF humans. Rifleman is now a formidable unit with high range even in early game, if you're willing to put up with a miss chance.
Last edited by Sunrise Samurai on Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:09 pm

that what i want to see from dwarves.
Also they can't get increased range from upgrades at all.
Maybe to rifleman give 1 speed in transformed mode but lower his base damage in regular mode by 1.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:31 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:that what i want to see from dwarves.
Also they can't get increased range from upgrades at all.
Maybe to rifleman give 1 speed in transformed mode but lower his base damage in regular mode by 1.
I'd agree to no range increase, but they'd quickly fall behind in mid and late game. Maybe range increase on the second and third upgrades, but not the first for crossbowman. Rifleman should have separate upgrades, because it really shouldn't increase range, and besides I think it's unreasonable to upgrade gunpowder and crossbows with the same tech. I expect further gunpowder units in dwarves later anyway.

Rifleman speed: I think it's supposed to be dug in, entrenched, and holding aim. This would mean 0 speed. I actually think it's fine.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:36 pm

I thought about 4 line of upgrades for dwarves:
basic weapon upgrades (+1 per tier, both melee and ranged)
gunpowder upgrades (+2 per tier, gunpowder units)
Melee armors (+1/+1 per tier, melee units)
Ranged armors (+1/+1 per tier, ranged units)

Also individual line of upgrades for mechanic/magic units (Golems, Steam Tanks...)

For Crossbowman additional upgrade in barracks that will increase their range by 1-2 (debatable).
For Rifleman additional upgrade that will remove miss chance while increase armor in shielded variant.
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:49 pm

Sounds about right. Separate upgrades for range and damage in crossbow, lumped with melee for damage. 2 tiers for range increase, requiring the second and third level of damage respectively. Gunpowder upgrades have a side upgrade train to reduce miss chance by 5% per level (to 0 after all upgrades)

I'd actually lump all armor upgrades together, to encourage focusing on it.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:52 pm

I think side upgrades need 1 tier only.
Sunrise Samurai wrote:I'd actually lump all armor upgrades together, to encourage focusing on it.
Maybe here you are right. for living dwarven units only still, magic/mechanic units will still have their own separate upgrade lines.
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by General Brave » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:46 pm

You guys make some very good points, especially about the archers being skirmishers. The reason why the Rifleman has one extra range on transform, because he's being steady and focusing. So 15% accurate the regular one and 10% the shielded one? And also bypass armor?
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:59 pm

Both forms' attack is counted as melee damage for armors.
No bypass armor.
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:07 pm

I'd actually say 20% miss chance regular and 15% focusing. We're planning a 5/10/15% miss chance reduction tech, and I think the final result should be perfect accuracy after all upgrades and skills are combined. Count all damage as melee for rifleman.

Yes, living units only, all armor upgrades are combined.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:23 pm

uhm sunrise i am talking about only 1 tier of special upgrade for rifleman so there won't be 15/10/5/0%
15% to miss and 0% after upgrade as well as additional armor in second stance.

The problem with additional upgrades with tiers is that they take valuable time while giving not so good output. Best example is Dodges for elves: yes with final levels of they are powerful but it takes 18 turns to research ranged dodge and additional 18 turns for melee dodge. I'm not mentioning that dodge counter is the least used one of all 3.
Only blacksmith upgrades must have tiers. all others must be 1 tier only.
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:16 pm

I see your point. Combined the accuracy fix with the upgrade here
viewtopic.php?f=131&t=5533
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:18 pm

For gunpowder units i added ther own upgrades.
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by General Brave » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:34 pm

Write down what you guys wrote.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:54 am

It's all here.
viewtopic.php?f=131&t=5533&p=60880#p60880

Crossbowmen get the damage upgrades with melee units, and a separate upgrade for range increase later. Riflemen get the blanket gunpowder upgrades for +2 power per upgrade, and a separate upgrade to remove 15% accuracy penalty.

20% base miss chance, so aiming is always more reliable at 5% less.

Base stats are in original post.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Midonik » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:28 am

I dont think crossbow should have low range, crossbows have quite good range.
Just make crossbow normal archer-like unit with 6 basic range, while rilfemen will be little diffrent-lets make ralfie shoot albitly with 3 turn cooldown, able to shoot only to flesh and blood units that that deals 14 damage to them and is effected by normal armor (or no armor at all, mayby with albitly it's possible), with same miss chance and range as you wrote.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:14 pm

We do have to consider that elf archers need to be stronger. A 6 power, 6 range archer at 2 cost is equal in strength, with more life and armor to make it definitely better. I'd say for that plan it's best to go with 5 power and 5 range, as human archers.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:44 pm

Personally i like more first your design Sunrise.
low range, high power, high p.armor.
Specifically for not so genious persons
makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:26 pm

Edited proposed crossbow. I found the high power and 2 melee armor meant it was just too dangerous to melee, so I reduced both slightly.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by NikolaTheEinstein » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:37 pm

Will changing gunners to melee damage affect their performance against flying units?

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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm

We can depend that for each unit separately.
Also orc axe throwers deal melee damage but that don't affect their ability to deal full damage to flying units as well.
Specifically for not so genious persons
makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
IT IS ALWAYS EASIER TO CORRECT EXISTING THINGS THAN TO MAKE SOMETHING NEW FROM SCRAP. © by Makazuwr32™.

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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by NikolaTheEinstein » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:53 pm

As long as gunners can still deal damage to flying units then these changes seem fine. If they can't, then you're setting the dwarves up for failure against flying units. What good is a short range crossbow against the mobility of a flying unit? Green dragons would chew them up.

To reiterate, the changes sound fine. Just make sure that gunners can still effectively fight flying units

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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:54 pm

Personally i hope that dwarves will get cheap anti-flying helicopters (3 turns cost, 5-6 base damage, 200-300% bonus to flying units)
Specifically for not so genious persons
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Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by General Brave » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:34 am

Done what you wanted.
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by NikolaTheEinstein » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:00 am

What would really be cool is some sort of black powder flak cannon that can shred air units, but does jack against everything else

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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by General Brave » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:03 am

Anti-air guns?
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Re: Dwarven ranged units

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:11 am

Helicopter
Anti air flying ranged unit with area damage.
Specifically for not so genious persons
makazuwr32 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:24 am
IT IS ALWAYS EASIER TO CORRECT EXISTING THINGS THAN TO MAKE SOMETHING NEW FROM SCRAP. © by Makazuwr32™.

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