Poison changes: vote — ARCHIVED

[makazuwr32]

While alex was still with us we discussed with alex poison and we had several options related to latest upscale:

A: keep current poison as it is, no changes to, no bonuses, no additional poison-based effects (acid is a different effect that was planned to affect armor only and being self stackable)

B: make poison less potent (about 1/2-1/3 of current strength) but make it self stackable, still no more effects.
CAN BE CHANGED HERE AND NOW AND WILL BECOME FEELABLE VERY SOON.

C: keep CURRENT poison as it is BUT add more variants of poison (name them), each type of poison will stackable with others, some of them will be less potent, some more, 1 or 2 can be self stackable, some can have additional effects (attack decrease, slowing, sight decrease and so on). WARNING: THIS OPTION WILL REQUIRE MUCH MORE WORK THAN OTHER 2 AND CHANGES WITH IT WILL NOT COME ANYTIME SOON.
Also this doesn't mean that all units with current poison will still keep it. Some of units can get a different variant of poison effect (for example for hydra i planned to add "Hydra's venom" effect which will be much more potent poison (either around 2-4 times more potent or around 1.5 times more potent with self stack), ofc will be presented EXCLUSIVELY on hydra).

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Vote will last until 31.01.2021 (end of January).

[Savra]

I would prefer 2, however poison will be getting bonuses still against sea trolls when they get in.

Other then that, the reason I would prefer 2, is that would help in taking out the well armoured enemies and extremely tanky enemies as well.

The only downside is that you'll see that units like elf swordsman would end up being similar to skeletons and their weaknesses to fire. Except it would be less potent.

[makazuwr32]

Option c CAN also include effects similar to effect in option b.
Only it will take more time to implement them.

[Stratego (dev)]

i am planning B with slight decrease in power like -10hp instead of -12

[makazuwr32]

As for me best option will be combo of b and c:
Making current poison self stackable with damage 4-8 (will be discussed later, depending on duration and such, 10 is too much alas for stackable effect) while leaving place for more dangerous poison effects (for elves, undeads and scalefolks).

I have in mind by the way idea to divide "poisons" into 3:
Poison - self stackable with various power effects;
Venom - non-self stackable with various power effects, more powerful than poison (approx x1.5-3 times more powerful);
Acid - least dangerous effects in terms of damage but with lost of additional effects (like bonus damage to buildings, armor degradation (reducing armor effect), weapon degradation, mental ilness (sight decrease, miss chance) and so on).

[Stratego (dev)]

poison on -4 would be totally useless.
i plan to go with -10 at first and we will see.

other poisons, they can come in too, but should worth its damages.

[makazuwr32]

-4 will be worth if it will last for good amount of time and being stackable.
Alas i would go for 6-7 damage for 4 turns and self stackable.

[Stratego (dev)]

-4hp works perfectly in AOS so the same here upsaled x3 would be -12hp, the only reason i wated it to be a little less to be "sure" will not be op - so we can start with -10hp and we will see.

[makazuwr32]

Poison in aos is appliabke by 2-4 i think scources. In aof we have MUCH MORE possible scources of poison.

Just so you know EVERY BLOODY SINGLE orc unit (actual orc or merlock) has poison weapon activable ability (self). And we were planning to buff it by giving longer duration.

That is why i am for now against such actually big numbers.

[Stratego (dev)]

those orc abilities sould be nerfed than, not the game mechanics itself.

eg. that poison only last for 1 turn or something.
or activating it puts a slowing effect on unit for a turn.
or simply orcs having a weaker poisoning for instance.

here i am talking about standard poisoning units like "poison archers"

[Anchar]

In general, option C looks more tempting, as for reducing poison damage, I agree with Stratego, poison at the moment in the Age of Fantasy is quite weak, trying to play with an emphasis on poison is not effective, stacking it is also quite difficult because the units that apply it are usually expensive ( excluding orcs)

[makazuwr32]

3 turns for poison archer is not that costly i'd say.

Alas i agree if poison archers specifically will use more potent poison.

Here are full list of possible scources of poison:

Undeads:
Poison breath of skeleton dragon (aoe, up to 13 units)
Plague knight (on-hit, permanent, can be in mele or ranged)
Zombie (will later cost 1 turn, requires research, on-hit)
Ghoul (requires research, on-hit)
Skeleton tower
Skeleton golem (poison breath, planned)

Orcs:
Literally every orc and merlock unit, require tech to activate, on-hit, lasts 1 turn and require 1 action for now (completely useless, planned to be buffed in duration up to 2-3 turns or remove action requirement)

Humans:
Human poison archer (on-hit, ranged)
(And that's all (?) i think for humans)

Elves:
Poison archer
Wasp swarm (planned damaging spell for druid as replacement of forestwalk)
Wasp hive (and wasp queen spawn, will also use wasp swarm spell)

Dwarves:
Dune of poison for several ranged units (similar to orcish one)

And in general about poison:
It must not be used as main scource of damage, only as additional damage output similar to fire.
You do not use fire against literally every possible enemy unit (unless enemy is undead or trolls), right? Same with poison.
It is nice addition to damage output but it is not required to be used.

Oh. By the way forgot about few more planned changes by alex:
1. ALL Damage-Over-Time (DOT) effects (poison, fire chill, more were planned) later will become unremovable by regular heal spell. You will require disenchant/cleanese spell to remove it. This is not applied to heal from buildings or from mending effects for now.
2. There were plans for dwarves and elves at least to get more scources of poison (via subs), some of them will be AOE effects.
3. Cake is a lie.
5. After some thought i think best way to solve the problem with poison is option c with differentation of poison effects:
5.1. "orc poison" as common will become much more usual but much less potent (cd 5, lasts 3, cost 1 action), maybe also limit this to melee units only (no casters or ranged units).
5.2. "undead poison" will become non-stackable disease and plague (2 variants, less potent and more potent, also some additional side effects will be there).
5.3. elves, dwarves and humans will use regular, more potent poison on archers specifically (but for other units we will decide poison individually, for example for unit with posion bomb (aoe 2) planned for gnomes sub if cd will be low than no to potent poison, only weak one).
6. There are no point 3.
7. That was a lie. Alas there really are no point 4 in the list.

[Shark guy 35]

I like option C the best. It seems cool to have multiple varieties of poison.
Side note: How about adding 2 new poison units for humams?
1. Poison crossbowman: A cross bow man who uses poison darts.
2. Bandit: Low hp, but with a sword that poisons on hit. Maybe it could be faster than normal units or have stealth or someting.

[makazuwr32]

Poison crossbowman as for me is not required because he will have less range than archer for same, if not higher cost.

As for bandit — there already accepted idea for hunter's lodge for hunter unit who also will have poison weapon as one of his abilities. Melee specialist in tracking and killing animals and some bigger prey. Won't spoil more.

[Anchar]

It is also worth noting that the effects of poison (as well as fire) can be removed by simply going into any structure or center (which is usually used by trolls, so they did not burn out (and now, after scaling, they do not need buildings either, since the effect of fire against them too weak)), as a result, the stackable effect with reduced damage is of little use, as well as updating the heal.

[Savra]

It is also worth noting that the effects of poison (as well as fire) can be removed by simply going into any structure or center (which is usually used by trolls, so they did not burn out (and now, after scaling, they do not need buildings either, since the effect of fire against them too weak)), as a result, the stackable effect with reduced damage is of little use, as well as updating the heal.

I'd say this update might change that issue since fire users will be getting much higher bonuses toward trolls.

Anyway, as makazur pointed out, dot effects only supplement the attack done by the unit, they are not supposed to be the units main source of damage.

Plus, dot effects will eventually no longer be healable even from structures meaning you will have to use a unit who has the cleanse ability.

[Stratego (dev)]

buildings should still heal all these effects (poison/fire), we will not change that.

also this will not happen either:

1. ALL Damage-Over-Time (DOT) effects (poison, fire chill, more were planned) later will become unremovable by regular heal spell. You will require disenchant/cleanese spell to remove it. This is not applied to heal from buildings or from mending effects for now.

[Anchar]

Can't you make it so that the effects in buildings are removed not all at once, but 1 per turn?

[Stratego (dev)]

i could but why should they?

[makazuwr32]

Can't you make it so that the effects in buildings are removed not all at once, but 1 per turn?

Actually this will be best variant for any ways of healing.

This will be most balanced and will make dot effects much more dangerous.

[Puss_in_Boots]

B

[Savra]

I actually might change to C.

But I would still like the basic poison stackable, while other poison effects rely on debuffs instead of stacking.

[makazuwr32]

I have in mind by the way idea to divide "poisons" into 3:
Poison - self stackable with various power effects;
Venom - non-self stackable with various power effects, more powerful than poison (approx x1.5-3 times more powerful);
Acid - least dangerous effects in terms of damage but with lost of additional effects (like bonus damage to buildings, armor degradation (reducing armor effect), weapon degradation, mental ilness (sight decrease, miss chance) and so on).

Actual poison i want to be purely damage effects (of different power though - orcish poison i want to make less powerful than normal).
Venom effects will be more powerful but non-stackable. Also they won't be availible on cheap units (4 turns and less).
Acid effects will be poison + additional effect. Can be both stackable and non-stackable.

[Anchar]

i could but why should they?

Well, the thing is, in the fantasy era, the most effective fighters are ranged fighters, the whole emphasis is on them. Trying to press the front with swordsmen and cavalry does not make sense because each side has a defense that will shoot the attackers, therefore, melee fighters are used to cover ranged fighters and, like the entire army, is most often located near their defensive fortifications and city centers. The seizure of territories usually comes with a parallel laying of defenses, because of which the warriors always have the opportunity to sit in a building and throw off negative effects.

And now I will give an example on an orc troll thrower: this enemy has many lives, 100 healing, regeneration, the number of his attacks can be increased to 3 and an area attack can be applied so that he can kill crowds of any opponents, he also runs on water and mountains, his only Achilles heel is vulnerability to fire (was before scaling). Imagine you make several fire archers and impose many burning effects on him by sacrificing your archers (so they will not remain unpunished), but instead of dying, the troll simply runs into his tower and after a turn continues its terror. This is necessary so that the troll would sit in the tower for at least some time before engaging in battle.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok as a quick change we make
- poison stackable
- deal 10 damage
- orc ranged and casters do not receive weapon poisoning ability
- orc melee still has 1 turn to use poisoned weapon (so it will not get too op imho)

and we can make the new kind of poisoning logics later.

[Savra]

I think 8 is fine, as poison shouldn't be as effective as fire, being that more units are able to use it and it can effect a lot more targets.

[Stratego (dev)]

current minimum is 10, and we will see

[makazuwr32]

Currently poison deals 12 damage to unit per turn.
8 damage + stackable will be good enough.

10 damage + stackable will become too powerful buff to poison.

If you attack same unit for 2 turns than:
Current situation:
Unit receives damage (let's say X) from attack, get's poison effect, receives 12 damage from poison, on next turn again receives X damage and 12 damage from poison (single stack). Total damage is 2X + 24 from poison.

Your suggestion stratego (same base pattern):
1st turn — X damage from attack, 1 stack of poison deals 10 damage
2nd turn — X damage from attack, 2 stacks of poison deal 20 damage
Total damage is 2X + 30 from poison (+25%)

My suggestion:
1st turn — X damage from attack, 1 stack of poison deals 8 damage
2nd turn — X damage from attack, 2 stacks of poison deal 16 damage
Total damage is 2X + 24 from poison (same amount as current one)

Reason for 8 damage is because if we will attack same unit with poison from multiple scources (i for example had in one match 8 poison archers and i could theoretically stack with new way of poison working 8 stacks of poison effect on single unit) than damage dealt on next turn will be already higher than before (16+ vs 12) and i do not plan to make it higher unless it is confirmed to be too weak. 10 damage per stack will result in 20+ damage vs 12 and that is too powerful buff FOR NOW (in future we can increase damage if required but i feel that 8 will be best for basic poison).

For orcs i am planning to give orc poison effect that will deal 5-6 damage/turn but poison weapon will not require actions and will last 2 turns for them.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok but as i wrote lets try my version and we will see, if not good we will know about.

[Anchar]

I am for 10 damage, since all the effects of poison will be easily reset in buildings and poisoning skills are not so numerous at the moment.

As for the orcs, they are already a supernation, even in the battles of 4 against 2 orcs, orcs win.