Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

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Constantin
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Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Constantin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:34 pm

I noticed that fodder cannon had been completely changed to become very useful against Giants, dragons etc. Also orc demolisher, who uses a large log, was changed, receiving bonuses against giants and dragons. I think using a pretty big stone trebuchet and ent demolisher should also get bonuses against giants(100-150% I think) and also get power range 1. For an example slinger (that's not yet in AOF) has bonuses against giants, although it uses a smaller stone. And now, almost no one is using trebuchets and ents demolishers, but this change will make them usable.
What do you think about this idea?

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General Brave
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by General Brave » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:20 pm

The trebuchet should have bonus against dragons, it is a giant rock after all hitting it, there bound to be broken bones.
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by LordOfAles » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:21 pm

In that case catapults should also, as in many movies i saw dragons usually to be killed with them
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Alexander82
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:01 pm

Do we still have trebuchets? Anyway the demolisher is an anti buildings unit. Isn't that useful for that purpose?
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by StormSaint373 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:35 pm

I agree, rocks are the leveling factor in any circumstance! :lol:
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:52 am

Generally Dragons are killed with ballistas
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by samuelch » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Maybe stunt effects to giant or dragons.
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Stratego (dev) » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:26 pm

trebu is only for builkdings. you can not hit any moving thing with it

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Alexander82
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:13 pm

Anyway you should always consider that you can make as many trebuchet you wants since you build it.

It is always a good thing to have an extra option that requires actual production.
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:09 pm

Considering both trebuchets​ and ent demolishers are practically useless as it is, (being completely overshadowed by other options for their intended purpose) I think this might be necessary. If you can use them to knock a dragon from the sky or hit a giant in the face, I think there would be at least some reason to make them.
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Alexander82
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:37 pm

What is the problem about those units that makes them not viable as anti buildings?

I remember having a bad time against demolishers destroying my mega buildings wirh different races.

Is the bonus low?

If they are meant as siege units we can simply adjust how they behave in that role.

If you don't like using siege you aren't forced to do it.
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:14 pm

Compare demolishers to fire archers. Higher speed, higher range, immune to burning, and useful against more than just buildings.

Demolishers are rarely useful against anything but volcano, thanks to low side and low range. At least, that's my experience. They don't often get a chance to even attack a building before they die.

Trebuchets are compared to catapults, which may not have the same range but are more easily created and are much more useful against everything else in addition to buildings. In addition, the fireball from mages, blue dragons, or drake knights is extremely useful against buildings, reducing the need for trebuchets.

Both are simply not as good as other options within their own race.
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Lawrence » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:18 pm

Sunrise Samurai wrote:Compare demolishers to fire archers. Higher speed, higher range, immune to burning, and useful against more than just buildings.

Demolishers are rarely useful against anything but volcano, thanks to low side and low range. At least, that's my experience. They don't often get a chance to even attack a building before they die.

Trebuchets are compared to catapults, which may not have the same range but are more easily created and are much more useful against everything else in addition to buildings. In addition, the fireball from mages, blue dragons, or drake knights is extremely useful against buildings, reducing the need for trebuchets.

Both are simply not as good as other options within their own race.
I use trebuchets to shoot enemies who are far away or against stone shelters :D
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Alexander82
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:33 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Sunrise Samurai wrote:Compare demolishers to fire archers. Higher speed, higher range, immune to burning, and useful against more than just buildings.

Demolishers are rarely useful against anything but volcano, thanks to low side and low range. At least, that's my experience. They don't often get a chance to even attack a building before they die.

Trebuchets are compared to catapults, which may not have the same range but are more easily created and are much more useful against everything else in addition to buildings. In addition, the fireball from mages, blue dragons, or drake knights is extremely useful against buildings, reducing the need for trebuchets.

Both are simply not as good as other options within their own race.
I use trebuchets to shoot enemies who are far away or against stone shelters :D
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:51 am

Actually i think trebushets definately need some more bonuses. maybe lower their bonuses to buildings but increase their base damage? and god please remove their miss chance.
I think that if we lower their bonuses 4 times (to 250% against normal buildings and 1000% against mega ones) but increase their base damage to 30-40 and remove thier miss chance than they'll become really useful units.
Or 500% and 2000% bonuses, 20 damage and stun chance (fear-like but on hit with some chance)

About Demolishers
They i think need similar thing - higher damage and stun chance. also they need to be cheaper. At most 6 turns even if they'll have 30 damage. because they have near to no mobility (without elven wagons), poor health for 6-7 turn thrower and even more miss chance.
Compare that to human's catapults (higher damage, higher mobility because of wagons, higher range, faster to buid because of workers despite they are 8 turn units and great area damage)
Maybe make Ent demolishers like weaker catapults (lower damage, range) trainable only in tc's and ent trainers but with lower cost?

Personally i think that these stats will make them far more useful:
Hp - 30 (+9) (a bit increase - they are ents still! and they can't use wagons for now)
Damage - 21 (+9)
Power range - 1 OR Passive: 40% on hit stun unit for 2 turns (-5 actions/turn, lower speed by 3 tiles)
Range - 6
Armor/P.Armor - 0/8 (+1 p.armor because some ridicilously powerful shooters can damage them without burning really easy from safe distance. Uruk archers and imperial crossbowmen for example, but removed their normal armor)
Speed 2
Sight 8
Cost 6 turns

Or

Hp - 21 (same)
Damage - 17 (+5)
Power range - 1 OR Passive: 40% on hit stun unit for 2 turns (-5 actions/turn, lower speed by 3 tiles)
Range - 6
Armor/P.armor - 0/7 (just remove normal armor)
Speed 2
Sight 8
Cost 5 turns
Last edited by makazuwr32 on Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alexander82
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:11 am

I suggest to postpone this discussion after changes to the wagon's logic.

IMHO siege on wagons shouldn't definitely go more than ents or giants on wagons (unless we make specific and more costly wagons)
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by godOfKings » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:35 pm

By the way in age of empires 2, trebuchets had enough damage to kill a paladin
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:07 pm

That is normal AoE was a hystorical game, not a fantasy game
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by godOfKings » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:12 pm

No I mean the damage, trebuchets have enough damage to kill a paladin if directly hits and paladins were the final upgrade of the Knight, its a huge chunk of rock after all, so my suggestion is give it as high damage as catapults, no splash area, high inaccuracy, lower bonus on buildings but with bonus and new damage would b same as current damage of trebuchets on buildings
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Re: Rebalancing trebuchet and ent demolisher bonuses.

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:22 pm

Alexander82 wrote:I suggest to postpone this discussion after changes to the wagon's logic.

IMHO siege on wagons shouldn't definitely go more than ents or giants on wagons (unless we make specific and more costly wagons)
Considering the huge impact mobility has on the topic, I think you're right that this discussion can't take place without accounting for the change to wagons.

Speaking of age of empires, here's an idea to make trebuchets much more useful and get a jump on the wagon issue. Catapults can be built near a battle, so don't need this as much.

3 forms
Trebuchet (packed)
Built at castle
Same hp
3/5 armor
No attack
3 movement (maybe even 4, but that's debatable)
Can transform into trebuchet (unpacked)

The mobile form. Can't attack until you set it up.

Trebuchet (unpacked)
Same hp
No attack
No armor
No movement​
Transform into trebuchet (packed)
Transform into trebuchet (ready)

Mirroring age of empires, these things take time to put together or take down. That's the ideal moment to kill them, since they are vulnerable.

Trebuchet (ready)
Same hp
20 power
10 range
Same accuracy
0/8 armor
No movement
Transform into trebuchet (unpacked)

The final stage. Higher attack than the current trebuchet means it hits harder when it hits anything but buildings. Reduce the bonus vs buildings accordingly.

Put these three together and you have an unwieldy siege weapon that doesn't need a wagon to move anymore. The movement is paid for with a delay from movement to attack, giving the other side a chance to prepare or remove it.
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