Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

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Alexander82
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Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:57 pm

In game there are always stronger and weaker units. Sometimes some units are just counters for others and sometimes they just need some improvement.

This topic is for elf units. Tell us not just the unit but also why you consider it weak and what do you think should change.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alpha » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:14 pm

Wolfs are pretty weak even though they have a nasty bite
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:56 pm

Yes, they are weak but they aren't a unit but a summon. Their real purpose is to be annoying and they really can be that avoiding ranged units to becoming the target of strongest melee units (there is nothing that makes me angry like having to deal with a ton of summons instead of hitting the real deal)
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Midonik » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:25 am

Yes. I play by orcs againist elves no one time,and I lose all of this.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by DoomCarrot » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:18 am

Dryad. Not a bad unit, especially in campaigns, but I just haven't found a proper place for them yet in my most effective elf strategies.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:14 am

Probably the fact that normal elves are already fast and that is vulnerable to spearmen makes her a less viable choice
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Midonik » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:24 pm

He got posion. It realy usefull againist strong unit if you got where to go back. But you got some right. He is only little faster than normal units.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by DoomCarrot » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:16 pm

Exactly, the poison is the redeeming quality for it, but I just have not really found a need to poison anyone when I use my favorite elf strategies.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Midonik » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:25 pm

No one say you have to use them ;)
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:36 pm

I understand both. The unit itself is good, but is probably more straightforward using a fast archer. The best use imho is using it to poison units with a high pierce armor
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:28 am

A few things
Elf swordsmans and warriors: change to 2 turns
They are outclased by elf archers and unusable. Even if made only two turns, other unnits are still better choices.

PLEASE Re-rebalance the elf dragons:
They are the weakest dragons with the highest cost. They are also the last dragons to come out. For reference: With many starting units every single other race can have a dragon out on 8th turn meanwhile elfs would have it out on their 13th turn.
Orcs can now easily deal with them.
Undead can just sacrifice killer them to death.
Humans have imperial knights that are super bulky and need to be slowed down.
Elf dragons need to be brought down to 6 turns and be given back nature power. Even then it still doesnt hold a candle to the other dragons.

Eagles: 4 turns
They are now easy to deal with by any race there is no reason to make them so expensive. Compare to the gargoyles they are also outclased since gargoyles get good bonuses agaisnt all buildings.

MAKE WAGONS FOR ELVES:
I mean...the icon is there already. Every other race has wagons but not elves. It would solve their biggest problem in that they get walled by orcs. Elves are not able to steal towns like other races because their units are too frail to rush a town while avoiding damage from the stone shelter. Once they have finished building all their buildings ent workers become basically useless

These are all things that should only serve to make big drawn out battles (against orcs specifically) more balanced.

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:41 am

enrich wrote:A few things
Elf swordsmans and warriors: change to 2 turns
They are outclased by elf archers and unusable. Even if made only two turns, other unnits are still better choices.
I've already done that. I'm just waiting Daniel to put them online (i also made the warrior more similar to a spearman with high bonus against mounted)
PLEASE Re-rebalance the elf dragons:
They are the weakest dragons with the highest cost. They are also the last dragons to come out. For reference: With many starting units every single other race can have a dragon out on 8th turn meanwhile elfs would have it out on their 13th turn.
Orcs can now easily deal with them.
Undead can just sacrifice killer them to death.
Humans have imperial knights that are super bulky and need to be slowed down.
Elf dragons need to be brought down to 6 turns and be given back nature power. Even then it still doesnt hold a candle to the other dragons.
Yes, they need something specific for them (like human dragons having breath)
Eagles: 4 turns
They are now easy to deal with by any race there is no reason to make them so expensive. Compare to the gargoyles they are also outclased since gargoyles get good bonuses agaisnt all buildings.
4 turns seems ok, but we might power them up if they are weak for their cost, so give some advice o that front
MAKE WAGONS FOR ELVES:
I mean...the icon is there already. Every other race has wagons but not elves. It would solve their biggest problem in that they get walled by orcs. Elves are not able to steal towns like other races because their units are too frail to rush a town while avoiding damage from the stone shelter. Once they have finished building all their buildings ent workers become basically useless
The wagon is already in the map editor, so i think it would be easy to put in. I agree with that.
These are all things that should only serve to make big drawn out battles (against orcs specifically) more balanced.
As far as the sentinel is in they should already have removed the gap with orcs and humans (i made it with bonus against both giants and cavalry)

What elves really need is something to resesarch in the late game since an elven player might be ok in small maps, while in big map it will be outclassed by any human and orc player since they have many ways to improve their units. We need some tech for elves (Daniel prefer techs for elves instead of unit upgrades, so we might actually make something that improve range and damage for elf archers in the long run)
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:08 am

Ok a few ideas (and ive thought about this for a long time)

8 turns: Natures swiftness/furry/wind/etc
Gives ALL ent and animal units +1 speed
It would further help the dragons stand out
Ent workers could have this since they are also the worst workers in the game
This would REALLY help ent warriors and demolishers get across big maps (but soon we shall have wagons so whatever its cool eitherway)
MAYBE for ent trainers too (probably not)
Not sure about summoned ents tho....maybe

8 turns: Natures call (Replace nature call with nature sight)
Gives ALL animal and ent units -1 to cost
If eagles are made into 4 turns with this tech they would become 3 turns which would be decent, and they wouldnt need any further rebalancing
If dragons are made into 6 turns, this would give make dragons 5 turns which would be helpfull against trying to get past defences to try to take a town from behind better
This would make ent workers the same as orc workers. With a movement bost they would also be almost as good as human workers.
Ent warriors and demolishers would benefit alot from this boost also. (but soon elves will be getting wagons so again it wont matter)

10 turns: Natures contract
All sumoned units get +1 to their vanishing this would make it possible for druids to atrack from a longer and safer distance and for wizzards to wall better too

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:35 am

Nature swiftens seems nice but i would leave ents out (ents are supposed to be slow)

For nature's call i would prefer something that improves units instead of reducing cost (the game is pretty slow already, and more units in game wouldn't help)

About nature's contract i think that summons are alright as they are (2 ent at time as a wizard are pretty good since they are strong as a 7 turns ent asidr from hp, and wolves are a lot too giving a great fiels control). I would go for other improvements for some summon's stats or for an extended summon list
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:10 pm

So thats a firm yes on natures swiftness?

Natures call. On big maps i think that being able to pump out more dragons and ents over the course of the game woud be extremely beneficial. It goes with the playstile that elf units are generally frail and easy to take down or work around and therefore relly on mostly field controll. Lowering the cost for units like ents effectively boots the attack power of elves as a whole. And mind you this isnt a win condition to elves either way. Its just another useful strategic option for the long game. On small maps it wouldnt be as usefull but it can still help.
You forget that even if ents are hard to take down (as you have stated before) they are easy to work around and are limited strategically as to the things that they can do.
Elf dragons and eagles dont necessarily need to be buffed but rather change their cost to 5 and 3 respectively. This can be accomplised by this technology or by changing their cost directly

How about this then:
Natures fury: 10-12 turns
enr warriors, dragons and eagles get double strike
Ent warriors with double strike are still outclassed by cave trolls
This would boost the attack of dragons but they would still be outclassed by ettins
And eagles would become good at picking off weakened units

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:38 pm

enrich wrote:So thats a firm yes on natures swiftness?
I agree for animals and also for the dragon (it might just be improved without the tech tough). Not for ents (that are meant to be slow)
Natures call. On big maps i think that being able to pump out more dragons and ents over the course of the game woud be extremely beneficial. It goes with the playstile that elf units are generally frail and easy to take down or work around and therefore relly on mostly field controll. Lowering the cost for units like ents effectively boots the attack power of elves as a whole. And mind you this isnt a win condition to elves either way. Its just another useful strategic option for the long game. On small maps it wouldnt be as usefull but it can still help.
You forget that even if ents are hard to take down (as you have stated before) they are easy to work around and are limited strategically as to the things that they can do.
Elf dragons and eagles dont necessarily need to be buffed but rather change their cost to 5 and 3 respectively. This can be accomplised by this technology or by changing their cost directly
I think it would become too strong. Especially for lower cost units. Elves have already a great field control thanks to their summons that might be easily placed tactically to keep busy the enemy units. If you think that units are too weak i would agree more with making them stronger than less costly (also ent workers would become decent fighters with the right powerup becoming worker/fighters). I suggest to improve animals, ents and dragons with specific techs (for example ents might have improved branches that gives extra damage or improved bark to increas armor or hp)
How about this then:
Natures fury: 10-12 turns
enr warriors, dragons and eagles get double strike
Ent warriors with double strike are still outclassed by cave trolls
This would boost the attack of dragons but they would still be outclassed by ettins
And eagles would become good at picking off weakened units
Double strike is not a weak improvement at all. Some of those units are meant to be in a certain way (ents are meant to be costly and act as moving walls to protect the archers behind that are meant to take out enemy infantry whle ents keep them at bay. They have no real counter and even fire just deal very low damage). With your combined proposal all ents would be fast as an infantry unit, ultra hard to kill and with double attack and lower cost. Ents are already a great unit for elves wich were meant to be weaker in melee and improving ents too much would also make the elf mage imbalanced (since you might have double attacking fast ents the actually move by 8 tiles (4 of mage +1 summon tile +3 from improved movement).
When i play elves i never make ents ony for a reason: It is way better to make more mages and spawn summoned ents since the only different stat from basic ents is the lower hp (but they generally just vanish before dying).
Also it is just normal that a cave troll is better since orcs best units are melee.
About the dragon i think you should compare it to the other dragons and not with other units that aren't flying and have a greatly different role (would be nice to have a ettin with flying speed 6 but it would become a game breaker). I would give the dragon a specific ability like a chance to dodge attack or a range 2 for its attack, to make it avoid counterattacks and that would make sense given its long neck) or an healing breath (to become a fast support unit).
About eagles i think it woudn't harm too much, but i think they were meant as anti siege units and anti ships.

Another suggestion i would give you is to make some improvements for archers (like the upgrades for human archers) since i think that they should develop enough to stay in game as the best archers (human archers reach 8 range and more attack even tough at the start they are worse)
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:25 am

Ok so heres what weve come up with so far:
Natures swiftness:
6 turns
For eagles, dragons and maybe wolfs and MAYBE driads.

Natures call
8 turns
For ent warriors, ent demolishers, eagles, dragons, sea serpent and maybe ent workers and MAYBE driads.

Change eagles cost to 4
Change dragons cost to 6 and give them longer attack.

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:35 am

enrich wrote:Ok so heres what weve come up with so far:
Natures swiftness:
6 turns
For eagles, dragons and maybe wolfs and MAYBE driads.
I think that faster dryads would be cool too. As they are now it is always better to make fast archers. I think Doomcarrot would agree too
For wolves i think they are already really fast but they might be ok too since they can't conquer tcs.
Natures call
8 turns
For ent warriors, ent demolishers, eagles, dragons, sea serpent and maybe ent workers and MAYBE driads.
Have you read my suggetions? I think we should avoid a tech that change the units costs. Just make specific techs to improve weaker units (and smaller categories. Just nature units seems too generic too me) or just rethink costs as they are.
Change eagles cost to 4
Change dragons cost to 6 and give them longer attack.
I think it is ok to lower eagles cost (but i'd like to ear other players on that since the unit is a counter for ships)
For the dragon i'd leave the cost as it is since we are improving both speed and attack range (we can still change it later). I would just make an alternative way to build one (the real downside is the dragon being at the great tree only, that means that you can't make dragons if you don't have the space to make a tree)
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by DoomCarrot » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:53 am

So far I think this discussion is on the right track. And yes, I would like dryads to be affected by the nature swiftness. :)
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:57 am

Fine then we can just change the untis to
Ent warriors 6 turns
Ent demolishers 6 turns
Eagles 3 turns
Elf dragons 6 turns
Humans can easily kill ent warriors with assasins period. Orcs can just brute force kill ent warriors easily. The undead have MANY ways to kill them. Elfs can slow them down and put wolfes around them to render them useless.
Ent demoishers are outclased by trebuchets, fire spells, and assasins. Orcs as a race is generally beter than an ent demolishers. Ent demolisher are the only way to try to deal with orc kings, ettins and cave trolls. Skull trowers are BETTER since 4 of them can rellially destroy a castle for only the cost of 8 turns
Eagles are generally only good for their speed but are easy to take down. Since they cant capture towns or deal with buildings or strong units, gargoyles are better. Their cost should reflect this.
Elf dragons are the weakest dragons even with increased speed and range. Human dragons effectively have a ranged attack with fireball and CAN deal 1v1 with ranged elf dragons, it is a close fight, and they are cheaper. Orcs dragons can easily win 1v1 and are cheaper. And skeleton dragons can also win 1v1 PLUS overall you shouldnt be using dragons against undead, and therefore are cheaper.

I just simply do not understand your logic. On one hand you say that making a technology(costing 8- 10 turns) to make ent warriors for only 6 turns would be too strong. Yet at the same time you admit that compared to summoned ents they are worse and propose making them stronger. The reason i proposed a technology was because just making them 6 turns would affect non-upgraded games. Since you say that ent warriors are worse than elf wizards at defending and therefore dont use them, then this technology shouldnt affect your gameplay.
I only brought this up so players have the OPTION to use this tech. Personally i dont really use wizards. And therefore i would like so see ents given the spotlight. The high cost of the tech would make players decide if its worth it because and the end of the day, like you said, the game is slow and more units wont help the elves much. And ent warriors can still have the barkskin tech and branches techs, but what im saying is that the game should be balanced before we go around creating units that make some races loose just by existing. And i believe this tech would balance long games and wouldnt affect to much small games

For reference:
Against humans in long games elves CANNOT WIN. Humans have DRAGON RIDERS that win the game against elves and undead simply by existing. They are better than elf dragons period. They have more hp, 6 speed from the start, better defenses, and bonuses angainst dragons and strong orc units, as well as fireball to deal with buildings and groups of weak units. Plus 100% SPELL RESISTANCE that...is...RIDICULOUS. The only other units completely resistant to magic are: transports, zombies and gargoyles but they are easy to deal with. Elves and undead cant touch it without sacrificing a lot of units period.
HOW can you have a unit (dragon rider)that is cheaper than another unit (elf dragon), is hard to deal with and is just plain better, but still complain vehemently about trying to make the other unit(the elf dragon) reflect this. I do not understand your logic.
And if you argue that a dragon rider is that way because it is MEANT to deal with UNKILLABLE GAME BREAKING dragons then:WHY is it stronger, better, more versatile, and completely outclases them?
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:23 am

I mean...im only proposing ideas that i believe will help balance the game. And i try to look at the big picture to make sure that the races as a whole remain balanced against eachother.
Its no fun having most of the map captured but still loosig because you made the mistake of being the wrong race...

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by enrich » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:31 am

*bonus rant*
Elf workers are the WORST in the game
Orc slaves are 1.5 times better
Undead workers are 1.875 times better
Humans are 1.25 times better
Humans with abidextria are 1.875 times better

In long games, workers and, more specificaly wagons, win games if anything something should be done about this...

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:55 pm

Hey i think you should calm down a bit.

1) elven sentinel (counter for giants) will bw in game soon

2) I already improved elven indantry units and they eill be updated soon

3) if you just keep swarming units reducing the cost instead of improving them you'll end up with imbalanced situations (you'll be too strong against some races or too weak against others). Elves haven't problems in spawning a big amout of units, they just need some powerup for long games (if you fight an orc at turn 20 is definitely stronger because upgraded units).

I don't see the elves as being weaker than other races. They are generally better from a tactical point if view (high range and fast speed). They just need ways to deal with upgraded units (counter units and upgrades).

The worker might be less effective in that role but with upgrades that affect ents he will become a warrior/fighter (no other race has a worker that can be viable in combat).

I'm trying to make a constructive discussion but it seems that you just can't see the point i'm trying to show you.

For example i said that the ent warrior is a great unit for its role (to kill one with orcs you need to amass a big amount of heavy hitters around it and in the meanwhile you are slowed and blocked by summons). It just isn't worth it because it is better to produce a wizard that can make infinite ents for free. We have to give it some specific improvements that make it better than is summoned version. Even if you lower the cost by 1 it is still better to produce a mage because free is better than 6 turns. Do you agree with that?

Other units have just their use. Eagles are meant to fight ships, so there is no meaning in lowering their cost since you are probably using the for the wrong purpose.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:02 pm

I suggest to wait for the new units and the upgrades to be in before editing anything new. If you want to propose some techs just use the specific section and we'll discuss about any suggestions in a single topic
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by The Pendulum » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:47 am

Ive already posted multiple times (a long time ago) about many of the Elven units being balanced conpletely wonky (such as a regular archer costing 1 less than a quick archer, but the quick archer has 80% more attack power spread across two attacks.)

Ive already suggested regular elven archers be complete redesigned as quick archers take their role and do it better.

Elven warriors are even more trash now, now that so many units have 7/8 armor and 50 HP because even with 400% attack power against mounted units, even when initiating an attack, they straight up die because they have shit health and few other things do.

Elven warriors have 11 hp, 4 attack (what?!) have no armor, and cant even kill a stronger mounted unit (Inp Knight, Upgraded Orc knights). Yes, i know there is a "de-armor" spell, but heres why it's a bad design decision to force a player to rely on a spell to remain effective against armoured mounts.

A)it removes the viability of different playstyles
B) you can only cast it once, which means you need roughly an equal number casters to warriors to counter am armor of knights. Thats bad, because now you have little to no room left for the rest of your army.

While we're talking about silly things... Can we remove the damn auto cast for spell casters? Im tired of my sorceresses shocking themselves to death with their own lightning spell.

My proposal for Elf Warrior is to either increase its health drastically (giving her ~25 health), or increase it slightly but also giving an arnor buff. Personally, i think a straight health buff makes the most sense. Also, i dont think an attack power of 4 is even necessary. Because it makes her literally useless against every other unit in existence. THis is non-sense.
Last edited by The Pendulum on Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Midonik » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:04 am

Guy! When you play by elves DONT use warrior. Only summon etns by wizards and produce some etns warriors. And tons of quick archers. TONS. Some demolishers also help you. And dragons at late game.
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by The Pendulum » Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:18 am

Midonik wrote:Guy! When you play by elves DONT use warrior. Only summon etns by wizards and produce some etns warriors. And tons of quick archers. TONS. Some demolishers also help you. And dragons at late game.
This is not conducive to proper balance at all. Yeah, i know what units are good and which arent, which is why i made the post in the first place. The point is to make the warrior, swordsman, and regular archer better. Not discard them.

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:08 pm

warrior and swordman are now definitely better (only sightly weaker that humn versions but faster) they cost 2 and will be powered by elven techs.

The basic archer is good already. Is the fast archer that is too good.

When you need numbers or a fast training you make a normal archer, otherwise tha fast archer is definitely better in most cases
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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by The Pendulum » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:17 pm

I disagree, and here's why: at the end of 6 turns, you will have produced 3 regular archers, and two fast archers, which means 3 regular arrow attacks, or 6 double archer attacks.

Now, in my experience, it takes 3 arrows whether it be from a regular or fast archer, to kill a basic infantry unit that isnt upgraded visually. Now i know this obvious, but heres the thing: for just one more turn, you get twice the attacks for a measly -1 attack compared to regular archers.

I dont think the quick archer is "too good", i think the regular archer is too bad because for one more turn spent, you get an extra 4 (if i recall correctly) attack power. In other words, youre spending exactly the same amount of attacks to kill the same unit, so it will always be beneficial because for 50% longer training (1 turn spent) you get 80% attack power increase. Why would i ever get a regular archer? I can pack more firepower into a smaller area AND kill more units for just one extra turn spent.

Also, 1 attack power difference is so miniscule you may as well just remove the regular archer altogether.

But if you do, can we swap the the two archers' art assets? I like the way the reg archer looks better. Just my thoughts.

If you disagree, thats your right, im jist trying to explain why i think this way, and mean no offense to anyone.

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Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Elf

Post by Alpha » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:26 pm

Its fine but I have to agree with Alex and Midonik
Awoo~ my dudes!

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