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Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:57 pm
by Alexander82
In game there are always stronger and weaker units. Sometimes some units are just counters for others and sometimes they just need some improvement.

This topic is for undead units. Tell us not just the unit but also why you consider it weak and what do you think should change.

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:12 pm
by Oskar34
I think that undeads are generally good, but the problem is that the rest of races improve the units whith tech and the undead only can impruve skelotons (giving 1 extra damage), as result, this race become weaker durin the Battle. Si, in my opinion this race need to implement for they units a few tech.
(Sorry if there is any mistake)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:54 pm
by Alexander82
Sure, i understand. Btw are you italian? Since you wrote "si".

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:43 pm
by Alpha
Maybe Romanian?

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:19 pm
by Oskar34
Spanish

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:27 pm
by Constantin
Oskar34 wrote:I think that undeads are generally good, but the problem is that the rest of races improve the units whith tech and the undead only can impruve skelotons (giving 1 extra damage), as result, this race become weaker durin the Battle. Si, in my opinion this race need to implement for they units a few tech.
(Sorry if there is any mistake)
I agree

Besides,do the undead absent elite units, and their infantry is weak. For example compare the Uruk hai and ghoul alike they hired three moves but Uruk hai stronger. Also, they do not have strong towers

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:29 pm
by Alpha
I agree, we need to buff the undead infantry

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:29 pm
by Alpha
I agree, we need to buff the undead infantry

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:49 pm
by Alexander82
hey guys, remember that undeads almost never summon units the old way. They make the most of their units from special ability that raise dead enemy units to fight on their side, so it is perfectly acceptable for undead units to be weaker than other units (aso ghoul is anti building and orcs have top tier melee units).

Undeads still need some buff and i'm making special units for them too (take a look to the death knight) that won't be raisable from corpses (it would be too much) bt that can be trained the old way 8waiting turns) and that will make up for their cost.

btw if you think that a specific unit that isn't a raisable one can be improved we might see what we might propose.

I think that their best units are the spellcasters (they all have great peculiar spells)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:55 am
by Oskar34
Alexander82 wrote:hey guys, remember that undeads almost never summon units the old way. They make the most of their units from special ability that raise dead enemy units to fight on their side, so it is perfectly acceptable for undead units to be weaker than other units (aso ghoul is anti building and orcs have top tier melee units).

Undeads still need some buff and i'm making special units for them too (take a look to the death knight) that won't be raisable from corpses (it would be too much) bt that can be trained the old way 8waiting turns) and that will make up for their cost.

btw if you think that a specific unit that isn't a raisable one can be improved we might see what we might propose.

I think that their best units are the spellcasters (they all have great peculiar spells)
I agree whit you, the spell caster like the mummy, Lich.. are good and eventhoug they reanimate dead unit for figt in your army, you have to admit, that undead can' t won a Battle when other races have all investigated. For exaple, I always play with a friend, I always the dead and he orcs, whe he has the hevay wolf Rider, elite orc swordman... Besides that in my army I have: 4 spectral Riders, 3 vampires, 5 Lich, lots of arches, skull, mummiew (whith the curse)... He always won me due to his units get better armor, more leve and damague, aparte from the etting and company.
I don't t saying to put better units to undead, only that this race also need that kind of tech for be able to fight, for exaple: heavy undead knig, elite ghoul, armored zombies...
And for defend a tower that shoot arrows, due to the tower they have the transformation disepear in turns and like that dead can' t defend the base or towns very well.
I also know that isn' t easy for you to know what to improve. Thank you for all.
(Sorry for all the mistakes I do)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:34 pm
by enrich
I think animation mastery should be changed to give a 50 percent cance to revive a better unit. 6 turns for only 20 percent is... lacking.

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:25 pm
by Alexander82
I'm already speaking with daniel about the basic skeleton upgrades and made some other for the undead knight. The real problem is that you really need to put attention in making undead units stronger since many of those can be summoned without actually paying the cost.

Some techa might be welcome tough

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:02 am
by MightyGuy
it's true! :D

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:28 am
by enrich
What do you mean by "the real problem..."? Can you elaborate?

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:40 am
by MightyGuy
said that don't make more stronger units because techs are useful to improve the hp, attack, armor and so on.

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:30 am
by Alexander82
The real problem is that undead skeletons aren't simply "produced" but are summoned from corpses in big amounts. Making basic units stronger might be ok generally, but when you can easily summon a big amount of strong units at once it might become imbalanced. To make it balanced we can do 2 things:

1) upgrades are only slightly stronger than basic units

2) reanimation spells can only summon basic units even after you research the upgrades.

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:31 am
by Midonik
I vote for 2

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:50 am
by Oskar34
Alexander82 wrote:The real problem is that undead skeletons aren't simply "produced" but are summoned from corpses in big amounts. Making basic units stronger might be ok generally, but when you can easily summon a big amount of strong units at once it might become imbalanced. To make it balanced we can do 2 things:

1) upgrades are only slightly stronger than basic units

2) reanimation spells can only summon basic units even after you research the upgrades.
And the orcs aren't invalancing? They are to strong, its imposible to wing they whith undead, however you are making these rece stronger and in this movent they are okey, you need to improve undead, elf... But at the moment don't upgrape more the orcs please.
(Sorry for all the mistakes)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:47 pm
by Alpha
I agree with Oskar.

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:53 pm
by MightyGuy
i agree too

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:29 pm
by Alexander82
Oskar34 wrote:
Alexander82 wrote:The real problem is that undead skeletons aren't simply "produced" but are summoned from corpses in big amounts. Making basic units stronger might be ok generally, but when you can easily summon a big amount of strong units at once it might become imbalanced. To make it balanced we can do 2 things:

1) upgrades are only slightly stronger than basic units

2) reanimation spells can only summon basic units even after you research the upgrades.
And the orcs aren't invalancing? They are to strong, its imposible to wing they whith undead, however you are making these rece stronger and in this movent they are okey, you need to improve undead, elf... But at the moment don't upgrape more the orcs please.
(Sorry for all the mistakes)
Orcs are meant to be strong melee fighters. Undeads strenght are in their spells and in numbers, so i think this is ok (when using undeads i suffer a lot more against elves that are immune to my spells).
There are a lot of techs under vote for undeads and i think they are a fair options to give undeads some space to expand in long games (right now the races with more options in th long run are orcs and humans, so in long games they are definitely better), but i think that a reanimation spell that summon double upgraded units might be too much. Also Daniel wasn't too fond of upgraded unit for other race (i tried to make him put basic undead upgrades but he's still not much keen about that)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:01 pm
by enrich
Then how about this then:
Reanimation mastery: 6-8 turns but with a 50% chance for a better unit

Summon mastery/undead crafting/reanimation expert/etc.: 8-12 turns
instead of ghoul, the big skeleton for normal corpses.
Insted of big skeleton, spectral rider for horses, dragon stays the same, and for archers remove the vanishing and allow it to move

The big skeleton is still relatively weak all it does is being able to tank more than one hit and maybe kill an archer or two before it gets killed.
The spectral rider is mostly to try to counter humans,since orcs and elfs dont really run many horses eitherways.
The dragon is fine already
No vanishing for archers.The undead NEED it to better counter the elfs. Not being able to move is a severe handicap for a frail unit already and can be used to try to better snipe an elf wizard hiding behind her ents

Elfs generally outright win against undead since their spells are basically useless. Undead needs reanimated units that can sponge more attacks from elfs. Driads are not as good as fire archers to deal with undead so the spectral rider should only be a problem to bad players.

Against orcs the undead can still somewhat deal with them but in the long run they get overpowered. They need reanimated units that wont be destroyed simply by trample damage. Again spectral riders wont shine as much because orcs have better option than wolf riders.

Against humans the spectral riders see more usage but it still wouldnt be a win condition against any good players

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:42 pm
by Alexander82
2 things:

1) are skeleton archer vanishing? If they are it is a bug and it needs to be corrected (i made them and i'm sure they weren't meant to have vanishing)

2) Spectral rider wasn't meant to be an anti cavalry. It is an elite unit that is a good (and faster) cavalry that can reanimate undeads (i think it is pretty strong because lich are really eay to kill, so this one is a better option to reanimate on the battlfield)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:50 pm
by Midonik
Undeds archers havent got vashining

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:15 pm
by Oskar34
We aren't saying that undead have ti ve the best, only that they need to be improbre. And they don't have vanisin.
(Sorry for all mistakes)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:18 pm
by Alexander82
Yes, undeads need some workout

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:35 pm
by enrich
1) well i was playing a game and i REALLY needed to kill an elf wizzard but when i revived the archers they couldnt move and had vanishind. They could attack tho but i couldnt get the kill

2) im not saying that they are anti calvary. But with the new skill they would effectively become anti calvary since it would punish players who build strong calvary in the late game. And this skill would effectively help it more against human players since orcs and elfs dont play that many horse units

In my opinion thr undead are already good enough. They just need a skill like this to help it in the late game against humans and orcs

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:57 pm
by Alexander82
Do you mean reanimation? Yes, if you have many cavalry corpses you can get some fun (even tough they haven't specific bonus)

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:19 pm
by enrich
Yes a skill that allows you to reanimate even better units like this would be good for late game so the undead can keep up with orcs and humans

Re: Rebalancing topic - worst units - Undead

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:51 am
by Alpha
This is starting to confuse me, what are you guys trying to conclude, I see animations, spells, but what are you guys trying to say in a nutshell.