Imperial knight versus spears - ANSWERED

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Pyro
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Imperial knight versus spears - ANSWERED

Post by Pyro » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:34 am

In the game, there are zero units that are effective against imperial knights, not even halberds, piked or spears which are supposed strong against calvary. Also, the imperial knight does extra damage to halberds, spear and pike units which doesn't make sense because it's on a horse. Even the elven sentinel, who specializes in large and calvary forces is weak against imperial knights. Can this change?
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LordOfAles
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by LordOfAles » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:53 am

There are other ways to kill it than spears and halberds
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Midonik
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Midonik » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:00 am

Isnt it bug? Those units should have bonus aganist him. About bonuses,all cav have bonus aganist all infantry,also antycav ones.
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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:20 am

They have a bonus, just not enough attack. Try disarmor and you'll see a normal spearman take about half it's health.
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Alexander82
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:08 pm

They have a bonus but it is always a 8 turn unit against a 2 turn unit. A few spearmen can still deal enough damage to kill it.
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Pyro
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Pyro » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:15 pm

I keep looking back from screen to screen, and when I look at the part of the info pop up for each unit, none of my Spears are strong against imperial knights, even more, when I look at the pop up screen for imperial knights, it shows that it is effective against Spears it self which doesn't make sence. I would send a screen shot but I don't know how to.
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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:56 pm

It is a little​ odd to think of at first. Cavalry is efficient against infantry, including spears. Spearman is effective against cavalry. This means they both do more damage than normal to each other.

Imperial knights are definitely resilient. 6 armor and high health is hard to kill, with​ good speed and high power. The thing is it costs as much as a catapult, and has to​ work from melee range. Try fully upgraded raptor riders, plus strengthen, or else uruk pikemen from orcs. Elf sentinels can take it effectively, especially with dodge. (counterattack dodge especially) mass quick archers with upgrades will bring it down by brute force, if necessary. Humans can use a mage to disarmor it (yes, spell resistance makes it harder​, but not impossible) before a halberdier with reach wipes it out with no chance of a counterattack. Otherwise, consider it assassin bait. Hard to avoid assassins from melee range. Undead, I'd suggest mummies to use sacrificed killer. They don't have a good counter for it, but mummies work as assassins well enough.
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Alexander82
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:49 pm

Also bonuses are applied after damage reduction (that is why sometimes it is hard to balance countering units). I think that if the engine would apply bonuses before armor it would make making units easyer (we shoul obviously remake current units bonuses)
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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:04 pm

That's a massive balance change, but I'd call it necessary at this point. There's quite a few examples of units with a massive bonus on a whopping 1 damage after armor.
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Alexander82
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:40 pm

Yeah. That's why orc warriors were better than crushers at destroying buildings. Higher attack + low bonus beat low attack + high bonus

It would require a lot of work but it is easyer for units that already have a json.
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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:23 am

I'd also say a rework of the current bonus system might be in order. For example, the distinction between melee infantry and cheap melee infantry should probably be scrapped. If something is effective against a swordsman, it should have the same bonus against an imperial swordsman, simply based on the similar function. The increased​ stats will protect the imperial swordsman from falling victim quite so easily, but it shares some of the same counters. Similarly, what's with the archer bonus vs ornithopters, but no other flying units? As far as fliers go, ornithopters are pretty weak, and don't need help dying.
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Alexander82
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:56 am

It's probably some old remain of AoS system. Consider that the u_flying was added later on my request to create melee units that are allowed to hit flying units. Archers were meant to deal normal damage to flying units
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Alexander82
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Re: Imperial knight versus spears - ANSWERED

Post by Alexander82 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:01 am

set as answered
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