cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - IMPLEMENTED

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Alexander82
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cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - IMPLEMENTED

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:42 pm

Upgrades for the cave troll, it uses the same tech as the headhunter. They becomes bigger and stronger with each form.

Hill trolls gain +1 speed and mountainwalk at reduced speed and mountain trolls gain mountainwalk at normal speed


Cave Troll
Image
Stats:
Cost: 6
HP: 90
Attack: 30
Range: 1
Armor: 6
Pierce: 4
Speed 2
Speed on water: 1
Sight 3
Action: 1
Spell resistance 50%
Trample
Hills Troll
Image
Stats:
Cost: 6
HP: 98
Attack: 34
Range: 2
Armor: 7
Pierce: 5
Speed 3
Speed on water: 1
Speed on mountains: 1
Sight 3
Action: 1
Spell resistance 50%
Trample
Mountains Troll
Image
Stats:
Cost: 6
HP: 106
Attack: 38
Range: 2
Armor: 8
Pierce: 6
Speed 3
Speed on water: 1
Speed on mountains: 3
Sight 3
Action: 1
Spell resistance 50%
Trample
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Sunrise Samurai
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:59 pm

I like it. Seeing as it's speed is 2, full speed isn't too bad, and reduced speed is just 1. Replaces olog hai topic?
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Midonik » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:59 pm

Sounds nice,but why in races?
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:38 pm

No they are different units. Olog hai is standalone and ready to vote (I will adjust both costs and stats later on)

I think that orcs will work with 2 different strategies. Upgrading the races you prefer to use (less cost but lesst strength) or going on with a loooong term upgrading course but with stronger units (uruk path).

This will be the "normal" troll, like orcs and goblins (that in lotr are the same thing) are the "normal" uruks.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:58 pm

Midonik wrote:Sounds nice,but why in races?
Just noticed lol, i'm moving it
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:03 pm

I've been thinking, maybe orcs need a building dedicated to upgrades and move most of their upgrades there. Maybe a "training center" that can upgrade all orc unit types from upgrade level 1 up to 3, where the factories can research level​ 1 upgrades only. This means you can start with factories on upgrades, but need a dedicated building to go further than the basics.

As it is, I haven't seen much reason to choose between the paths when you can do both at once. Just dedicate one uruk tent to that research while you use other units to rush into battle, upgrading as you need. Usually starting with headhunters. Volcano can build uruks to benefit from the upgrades without taking up a factory slot even.
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:18 pm

As far as i've tried I never used the new units since many games never reach a turn length that is enough to really benefit from the uruk path. Researching everything it is just too costly. A 27 turn worth of production is equal to a few big units and you start to obtain the real benefit only later on. It is a good strategy if you start in a corner surrounded by allies, otherwise going with kings and ettins is just better for the most of the game.

Researching it from the start will give you less units that might be useful when you really need them (at the beginning of the game).

The real efficiency is when you just make uruks ignoring most of the other units (so when you upgrade them you already have a great army of ultrastrong uruks) but that strategy is less winning in the early turns.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:27 am

Alright. Well, back on topic:

Given the already high armor of trolls, I'd rather they received a bigger health boost in place of additional armor/parmor, just to prevent invincible giant unit syndrome. I'm also afraid this would supplant ettins completely, but still think it's a good idea to go with. We can think up a way to upgrade ettins later if they need to.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Puss_in_Boots » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:32 am

Imo only traversion should be upgraded.

We don't need trolls to have more health or armor/ parmor if they are going to get 3 speed.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:13 am

...I hadn't caught that part. Yeah, that should be at mountain troll level only, and they can only move 2 through mountains, not 3. Probably close to the only bonus to the upgrade from hill to mountain troll, since that's a 50% speed increase.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Ok the progression was

Cave: 2 speed 1 on water
Hill: 3 speed 1 on water, 1 on mountains
Mountain: 3 speed 1 on water, 3 on mountains

I think it is ok this way since the mountain walking will be the real reason to make it.
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:57 pm

First upgrade
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:41 pm

Upgrade 2
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:01 pm

Looks great.....except the headband. That makes it look like one of the teenage mutant ninja turtles..... :lol:
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:03 pm

I knew someone would have complained :lol:

Here the non-rambo version xD
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:25 pm

Better. Interesting you added the necklace. Looks like pearls. Probably stolen and the troll liked the glitter of it :lol:
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:26 pm

It isn't a necklace. It is a chain that tie the shoulder pad xD
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:00 pm

......ah. well, either way it's a nice touch.
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Alexander82
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:06 pm

Thanks ;)
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:52 am

Ok so we have the basic troll with the following stats:

Cave Troll
Image
Stats:
Cost: 6
HP: 90
Attack: 30
Range: 1
Armor: 6
Pierce: 4
Speed 2
Speed on water: 1
Sight 3
Action: 1
Spell resistance 50%
Trample
Hills Troll
Image
Stats:
Cost: 6
HP: 98
Attack: 34
Range: 2
Armor: 7
Pierce: 5
Speed 3
Speed on water: 1
Speed on mountains: 1
Sight 3
Action: 1
Spell resistance 50%
Trample
Mountains Troll
Image
Stats:
Cost: 6
HP: 106
Attack: 38
Range: 2
Armor: 8
Pierce: 6
Speed 3
Speed on water: 1
Speed on mountains: 3
Sight 3
Action: 1
Spell resistance 50%
Trample
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:19 am

Honestly, I don't like the armor increases. Once you hit around 5 armor or so, every extra point is a significant decrease in damage taken. I'd suggest more health increase and nix the armor increases.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:54 pm

It is more inline with that kind of units, You will need counter units for that (I think that any race as one, even undeads have ways to just kill or convert it).

Obviously normal infantry is going to do a very low damage to it.

Also i'm working with daniel to think to different kind of damage and spell resistance later on.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:02 pm

More of a percentage based resistance I'd guess?
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:09 pm

No, i was thinking about more damage type (e.g. trolls are weak against fire and they might take additional damage from fire-based attacks).
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:24 pm

That's actually easily done....ish. give fire archers, fortress, etc. a bonus vs it. Mage as well, for fireball. As far as warmage and anything else that only sometimes is fire damage..... don't know.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:39 pm

I had tought that but the way how bonuses works isn't great.

A bonus is applyed AFTER armor reduction

That means that when the fire archer hits a highly armored unit it will be 1 damage multiplied the bonus.

If I set a unit to deal a new type of damage (e.g. fire) we might set troll to have 0 fire armor, so they will take full damage, and if that unit also has bonus they will multiply their entire damage.

This is not a great problem when a single unit comes into play but if I want to give trolls the racial weakness to fire it would be great to have a single setting balanced for all of them.

Anyway i'd like to make trolls more similar to those seen on D&D (strong largre creatures with regeneration but weak against fire and acid). It is true that many of them are more lotr style but we might merge the concepts and make our own.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:35 pm

That doesn't sound too bad. Extra armor values are needed for everything, but this ensures there's always a way through the armor. This would give fire archers a lot bigger use than just building destroyers. That's for sure.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:43 pm

Exactly.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Sunrise Samurai » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:53 pm

Armor types: piercing, slashing, crushing, chemical, magical, and temperature

If we're going to add more armor types, I'm suggesting a split in melee damage types, including putting spears as actually dealing piercing damage like archers. Temperature as a general type, rather than hot or cold makes sense, since most insulation will resist one or the other just as easily. Chemical would be toxins, for the most part, or acid. Magical would be more or less a dumping ground for anything we don't know what to do with, as well as for giving mages an actual attack stat.
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Re: cave troll to hill troll to mountain troll - FINALIZED

Post by Alexander82 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:25 pm

Agree on spears. About temperature i disagree since elementals might resist on their own element (e.g. Fire elementals don't take fire damage or are healed by fire).

Anyway we are going a bit too OT we can open a different topic
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